| Author |
Message |
    
Splbass17
New member
Username: Splbass17
Post Number: 2
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 4:24 pm: | 
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I'm new to the 10 meter scene. I wanted to keep it simple and get the most powerful stock radio that works on 11 meters. I'm definitly not planning on messing around with the ham guys. I was set on the Ranger RCI 2970DX until I saw the new Connex 4300hp-300 watt. So my question to all you experts is which radio will give me the better range? I know the connex is more powerful, but isn't SSB the best for DXing ? Any advice would be great, thanks. |
Captian_radio
Intermediate Member
Username: Captian_radio
Post Number: 159
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 9:17 pm: |
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Let me sum it up like this.SSB =1/3 the duty cycle, 3 times the range and 3 times the fun. The only way to fly IMHO.
Bob CEF451/VE1CZ |
Splbass17
New member
Username: Splbass17
Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 1:02 am: |
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Why is it that SSB channels give you better range? I'm always reading radio specs and SSB is always given more watts output, it just seems to me that all the channels should have equal power. Sorry if I sound so novice (which I am) but I'm just trying to figure it all out. One more thing, if you use 10 or 12 meters or any other HAM FREQ. it works on repeaters right? So your range is unlimited as long as the repeaters can reach each other so your signal will travel as far as you could ever want? |
Romstar
New member
Username: Romstar
Post Number: 9
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 10:45 pm: |
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I have to agree with Captain Radio.
I use AM a LOT, I sort of have to and if you have been on 11 meters for a while, you know it's a bear. Why do you think there are so many amps out there? Pushing a dual sideband signal wastes a lot of power.
Even a cursory look at the difference between the techniques will show you how much power you are losing to that carrier.
The up side to using any multi system rig is that you get the ability to stay on AM if required, but switch to SSB for any sort of real DXing that you want to do. Not to mention your contacts are going to be farther away, and much clearer.
If you MUST DX on 11m with AM drive an amp with something like a Magnum or any of the Ranger or even Galaxy radios. Use a good amp that handles SSB as well, and you will open a lot of new doors. Might even keep you out of the 10m bands for a while if you don't have your ticket. A practice that I strongly recomend unless you are just listening.
Spend the money to get a good all around radio, and you will most likely enjoy the hobby longer and avoid a lot of frustration. There is a lot of room to play in sideband while you take the time to get your ticket if you want it.
Have fun,
Romstar |
Splbass17
New member
Username: Splbass17
Post Number: 4
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 9:15 am: |
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Thanks for clearing up SSB for me man, thats really interesting. I'm trying to get a setup that allows me to transmit aprox. 800 miles (without needing skip)if thats at all possible, I'm transferring to a college in Tennesse and my friend in Jersey is into CB as well. We're both trying to set-up mobile radios in our suv's(limited space) but we were trying to avoid massive linears and wires all over the place if its not needed. Plus I didn't wanna go so hard core that a bigger alternator would be needed.
Ok so let me run this by you to make sure my knowledge is correct. Now that I know SSB is the way to go I should forget about that new Connex and get the RCI 2970dx that I liked first.I'm kind of stuck on that radio because of the very modern look, its really cool. But if I wanna run an amp I shouldn't get the 2970dx because the power is to much for an amp to handle or can you turn the output power down on the radio so it won't fry an amp? Thanks |
Patzerozero
Senior Member
Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 3546
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 2:44 pm: |
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Splbass17, don't want to discourage you from a 'hobby', but.....do you HAVE an amateur radio license? if not, you CANNOT legally be into the '10 meter scene' you are 'new to'. 800 miles on 11m (CB) ain't happening at ANY wattage, without the aid of springtime 'E skip', & even then, 800 miles-TN to NJ- isn't guaranteed, or even able to be 'scheduled'-you're at the mercy of the skip gods. unfortunately, what you are trying to do is REPLACING amateur radio-with CELL PHONES.
as a hardcore AMer, & sometimes sidebander myself, your last comment in your last post above shows you've got the idea! BUT, some more info as to what you REALLY want to do/need to do will get you more helpful info from those knowledgable folks right on the COPPER FORUM  .
so, the 2970 is a more useful radio then the AM-only connex, & its output WILL allow you SOME TN to NJ DX contacts in the springtime, AM & SSB, alone, without the aid of an amplifier, but it should turn down enough to allow use of an amp that will double to triple your output-which is really only the SMALLEST amount of increased signal. |
Romstar
Junior Member
Username: Romstar
Post Number: 14
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 5:25 pm: |
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The only way to use the 2970 with an amp is to select an external amp that requires a higher drive input. Something that will handle the extra output of the Ranger radio.
When done properly, you can manage 500-1000 WATTS out of a pretty pedestrian magnet mount antenna. The problem with that is the capacative junction on your roof may cause paint to blister at those wattages. Not immediately mind you, but it HAS been known to happen. A better choice is mirror mount, or even bumper mount. A lot of SUVs carry a spare tire on the rear, and this can be a good place to mount a solid antenna.
The installation of a decent CB and AMP in any SUV is just the same as installing some serious stereo gear. If you have any experience there, you will be fine, and even make a good looking install. A CB amp will require more air flow though.
Bear this in mind. Technically any wattage over 4 on AM and 12 on SSB is "illegal". Using 10 or 12 meter bands without a ticket is more likely to get you busted, but....
If you are splattering RF all over the place, messing up TVs and radios, or just annoying another radio operator, you very well could find trouble with Uncle Charlie.
Now, the problem with CB repeaters (when you can find them) is that they are ONLY going to transfer your signal once. A HAM repeater can use in-band or out-of-band singnaling to re-transmit your signal on another repeater channel, rather than your intended frequency.
This gets a little complicated though, and considering the distance, you are looking at a lot of hops. Not many repeaters can handle this automatically, and finding 3 or 4 cooperative ham operators could be difficult on any sort of schedule. Again, this brings up the license issue.
Since I've beaten it to death, I will say that since it's much easier now to get your ticket without code that you take the time to actually apply for, and be tested for your license.
Even if you are just playing with AM and SSB out of a 200w amp, you are going to have a lot of fun if you know what to expect.
Good luck,
Romstar |
Patzerozero
Senior Member
Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 3548
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 5:59 pm: |
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romstar, i removed my mag mount antenna over the weekend for cleaning purposes. the wattages that you suggest can bubble paint, well, shouldn't, because the wattages i've used, well, haven't
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Romstar
Junior Member
Username: Romstar
Post Number: 17
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 6:56 pm: |
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Pat,
I agree that it "shouldn't" bubble paint, but I have seen it happen. Makes an ugly mess when it does too.
Quite possibly it's assisted by dirt and corrosion as well, so these are things that you obviously are conscious of if you were cleaning under yours.
Romstar |
Dale
Advanced Member
Username: Dale
Post Number: 666
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 9:03 am: |
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well imho a 2970 would be a great radio for ya
with a good antenna like the wilson5k mag mount
or preadator10k.what ever radio you decide on
dont skip the antenna.which is MORE imporant than the radio.talking 800 i dont see happening
best bet would be for both of ya to join copper voice chat and ya could talk to each other all day long if wish.let us know what ya get and
how its working for ya i like the 2970 alot myself i had 3 of them my only regreat was getting rid of my first one.if i would have kept it would never had to bought 2 more eventully down the road |
Splbass17
New member
Username: Splbass17
Post Number: 5
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 10:32 am: |
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Well I definitly apriciate the advice guys, I kind of figured 800 miles was a bit rediculous but I figured I'd try haha. I'm gonna go ahead and order the 2970dx with an Astatic mic. I haven't decided on the antenna yet, I'm installing in my Nissan Xterra and I wanted to mount it on the roof rack. Any recommendations on a good short (2-3 ft.) antenna. Plus I want an antenna that can handle alot of juice because I know I'll end up adding a big mean amp to my setup eventually.
As far as the 10 Meter operation, I'm gonna leave those "off limits" bands alone. I just wanted a 10 meter radio to run it on 11 meters because of the big watts right out of the box with little or no modifications. Maybe I'll get my licence, as you guys say "Ticket" eventually and then I can try out the 10 meter action that I'll be missing out on.
I'll let ya know when I have it all setup and how its proformance is soon. Thanks again for the help picking the right equipment. |
Patzerozero
Senior Member
Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 3550
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 3:13 pm: |
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using a 'short' antenna would be like beating yourself over the head. maybe get 2 antennas, a shorter 1 & a full size/much longer one, & switch 'em depending on where you're driving, if you're parked, etc. |
Romstar
Junior Member
Username: Romstar
Post Number: 18
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 3:22 pm: |
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I'll say the nasty words.........Radio Shack. 
Sorry, couldn't help it. I actually have one of their older center loaded magnet mounts, and it's been good to 1000 watts. I wouldn't dare try to run anything more through it though. They aren't THAT sturdy.
I have no experience with their new antennas, and some rare reports that I have read lead me to believe they are junk.
In my opinion you can't go wrong with Wilson. Take a look at the different types you can get at Copper, and you will find something that will fit the bill easily.
Dale is dead on the money. A good quality antenna properly installed and tuned will make even a mediocre radio sounds like a winner. A bad antenna will make even the best radio perform like a chump.
Unless you are going to run co-phased antennas, don't go cutting up the coax. It won't make a single bit of difference other than fooling your meter. Speaking of meters, if you don't have an SWR meter, and don't know someone who has one; spend the extra money to get a decent SWR meter and learn how to use it. This could be your single most important investment other than the radio and antenna.
Modified 10m radios are a wonderful thing for clean reliable power under 100 watts. Some are better than others, so really take the time to read the reviews on the forums here.
We'll be waiting to hear from you about your new installation.
Have fun!
Romstar |
Dale
Advanced Member
Username: Dale
Post Number: 671
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 7:27 pm: |
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thanks for the nice words romstar.just didnt
want him to buy loads of antennas every brand
and make steer him right the first time.well
i hate to be the one to inform splbass17 but
a short antenna will defeat the purpose of that big radio.unfortanely those low profile antennas that ya hardly notice work poor at best and thats providing ya can get the swrs down low enough to even use the antenna.look over coppers site my recommendations are
rci2970 tuned by copper ONLY
WILSON 1000/5000 mag mount
asatic636l mic |
Splbass17
New member
Username: Splbass17
Post Number: 6
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 9:30 pm: |
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Dude they use that antenna on the space shuttle ??!! How CAN I not get one of those! Thank god for credit cards. |
Splbass17
New member
Username: Splbass17
Post Number: 7
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 9:40 pm: |
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Oh yea about the SWR meter, I undestand the concept hehind them but have no exprience using them. Theres a place in Jersey so I'll take a ride there and hopefully they can show me the proper way to tune an antenna. |
Romstar
Junior Member
Username: Romstar
Post Number: 21
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 2:49 am: |
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Dale,
You wanna drive yourself insane? Try to use a through glass antenna on most modern vehicles. That should be worth a few hours entertainment.
For those who haven't tried this experiment, the problem is the glass. A lot of new vehicles carry light dimming glass. Look for something like "soft-glo" or "infra-break" or other similar markings.
This glass uses embedded metallic particles which block the capacitive link between the inner and out parts of the antenna. Basically like slipping tin-foil between the pieces. Dead short.
I have seen people fight with these things for hours, and sometimes you just can't explain things to people.
Splbass,
About that SWR meter. I really do recomend you get one. They are relatively cheap compared to a radio repair, and if you go tree trimming with your antenna, you may need to check the SWR from time to time.
I know this isn't the place for this, but I thought I would put it here and a mod can move it if they are so inclined. A small discussion on using a SWR meter, and tuning your antenna.
1. Setting the SWR.
Insert the antenna whip 1 inch into the antenna adjustment mast at the top of the coil. Using either the meter built into the radio or a good external SWR meter, calibrate on channel 20. Switch back to SWR and record the readings on three channels; 1, 20, and 40.
If the lowest SWR reading occurs on channel 1, the antenna whip is too long and must be shortened. Loosen the mast set screws and lower the whip 1/8th inch into the mast. Tighten mast set screw and again read SWR. Repeat until lowest SWR is obtained. If the whip is fully lowered into mast and the SWR is still high, remove the whip from mast. Using a hacksaw, grinder, or bolt cutters, cut 1/8th from the bottom part of the whip. Re-insert the whip into the mast and test again for SWR. Repeat the above procedure until the SWR is below 1.5 on all channels.
If the lowest SWR reading occurs on channel 40, the antenna whip is too short and must be raised. Loosen the mast set screws and raise the whip 1/8th, re-tighten set screws and test SWR again. Repeat the above procedure until the SWR is below 1.5 of all channels.
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2. The whip is raised to the top, but the SWR is still lower on CH 40.
This generally occurs on vehicles with very small ground plains, such as the compact cars, cars with hatch-backs, etc. It indicates the need for a longer whip than the standard one supplied.
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3. The SWR on a trunk lid mount is 3.0:1 on all channels.
When a reading of 3.0:1 is present on all channels, this indicates a lack of ground for the antenna. For example, some of the vehicles today insulate their trunk lid from the actual chassis or frame, ground of the body. This is done by inserting plastic washers on the trunk hinges, and/or sandwiching a layer of styrofoam type material between the two piece trunk lid. To eliminate this situation, a jumper wire must be installed from the actual bottom lip of the trunk lid to metal on the body of the auto. To accomplish this, loosen one of the hinge bolts on the trunk-lid side and install a braided strap. Re-tighten the bolt. Loosen the bolt on the other side of the hinge (trunk-body side). Install the other end of the braided strap to this bolt and re-tighten. Be sure to leave a long enough loop to prevent pulling apart when the trunk lid is fully open. As added ground insurance, you may wish to add a jumper from the set screw on the trunk lip mount to the hinge bolt on the trunk-lid.
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4. If the SWR is good until power is applied:
The antenna is not the problem. In this case, it is the amplifier. You have already established that the antenna is properly tuned and in good working order with low SWR, except when power is applied. Assume an operator is on 10 meters using a solid state amplifier. With the radio only, the SWR is 1.1:1; when the amplifier is turned on, the SWR jumps to 2.0:1. The amplifier is not only transmitting at 28 MHz, but is also transmitting on a second frequency of 56MHz. This is known as a "second harmonic" (2X the fundamental frequency of 28 MHz, transmitting at 56 MHz). Thus the SWR meter is reading both the reflected signal of the normal frequency and the rejected second harmonic signal. The antenna will not accept energy transmitted at 56 MHz, and returns it all back to the radio, which shows up on the meter as high SWR because the meter can not tell the difference between 28 MHz and 56 MHz. In fact, as much as 30% of the power is at 56 MHz. This is generally due to an amplifier that is not adequately filtered. Adding a Low-pass filter at the amplifier output is the only solution. For best results, connect the low pass filter directly to the amplifier using a barrel connector.
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5. How low can the SWR be brought down to?
Ideally it is nice to get the SWR to 1.1:1, but practically a 1.5:1 works just as well. Some installations will not even allow you to achieve a 1.1:1 SWR because of the grounding of the vehicle, the amount of metal available as a ground plane, and other circumstances. However, the loss with a 1.5:1 (using 18' of coax) is actually less than 1/2 of 1% of your output power, which on a normal 4 watt radio means a loss of .025 watts of power. This means that instead of transmitting 4 watts, you are actually transmitting only 3.975 watts. This is not even noticeable at a receiving station. Therefore, spending the extra time to get below 1.5:1 is purely a matter of choice, especially if you have a high performance antenna.
But, what actually happens if your SWR is 2.0:1 instead of 1.5:1 or less? Most CB radios today have protection circuits that starts to shut down (by lowering the output power) when the SWR reaches above 2.0:1. This reduces the output power of the final transistor amplifiers. So generally, anything between 1.5:1 and 2.0:1 is acceptable and useable for good, solid, reliable communications. Readings of 3.0:1 or higher indicates a problem may exist in the system. Check for complete grounding of the system (see #3 above ).
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The preceeding is based on a plain old magnet mount antenna. For other types, examine the assembly diagrams or carefully read the instructions that came with your antenna. In the bast case, you will have an opportunity to mount a 102 inch stainless steel whip antenna. Nothing really compares to this antenna in mobile aplications, and with a vehicle mounting, there is no substitution for sheer length.
I hope that helps anyone who may have any hesitations or issues with their meter.
Romstar |
Splbass17
New member
Username: Splbass17
Post Number: 8
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 11:47 am: |
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Well that sounds easy enough, thanks man |
Splbass17
New member
Username: Splbass17
Post Number: 9
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 12:24 pm: |
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Forgot to ask this, I dont know if this is one of those impossible questions to answer. Once I get it all working with low SWR how much range can I expect, you know without skip and all just on a daily basis. I'm not surrounded by moutains or in the city just regular flat suburb style terrain. |
Crackshot
Intermediate Member
Username: Crackshot
Post Number: 291
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 2:31 pm: |
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What about polorized glass?
KE7JFA
CEF 655
HAM 225
ARRL Member
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Romstar
Junior Member
Username: Romstar
Post Number: 24
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 4:34 pm: |
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Splbass,
Yep, that is an "impossible" question to answer. There are so many variables that it gets a little silly.
With a good radio and antenna, putting out 4 AM / 12 SSB you can expect reliable operation up to five miles on AM and much further with SSB. I have seen consistant, reliable operation at 20+ miles.
Frequently you will get much further, but as you pass the 20 mile mark you really start playing with "skip". This is where your angle of radiation will play a factor. Frequently in mobile use you have little control over your take-off or radiation angle. This means that you can usually talk to people in a 20+ mile radius, then jump quite a few miles, and talk to people in the next state, but not in between.
11m AM is always a little weird, but you will get much better service out of SSB once you have established contacts.
Now, after you get past the 4/12 watt issue (most people dive right in with amps these days anyway) you will see your effective range increase significantly.
Things get interesting here, as you will require a decent receiver, or a pre-amp for your front end. There is no point in getting out 150 miles if you can't HEAR at least that far. To be honest, it's better if you can hear distant stations, but can't respond to them. This assumes a direct distance/communication correlation. In CB radio this is often not the case.
If you utilize an amplifier you WILL increase your ground level coverage, but you will also significantly increase your skip propagation as well. There is just more power to bounce off the sky. Even with an amplifier, your transmission angle will play a role in deciding how far along the ground your signal will travel.
The best thing I can say about CB radio is that it can be fun, useful and a great introduction to other aspects of Amateur Radio. How you use it, and how it works for you will depend on how well you install the radio, and how much you care to learn.
Have fun, and just keep reading everything you can.
Romstar |
Romstar
Junior Member
Username: Romstar
Post Number: 25
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 5:25 pm: |
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Crackshot,
Polarized glass is a funny thing. In some instances a crystaline film is used, and in other cases an organic compound, the cheaper method however is often a metallic material.
In all cases, the intended effect is to block or significantly reduce the amount of light coming from a given direction. This has the effect of reducing glare. In an autmotive application, this is most likely horizontal polarization.
In some cases, this effect is accomplished with a metallic material that creates a crystaline lattice as it is applied to a substrate. These are actually more rare than you may think. The most common material is borosilicate. It is a crystal that has little effect on RF energy.
Many automotive glasses utilize a metallic material in their polarization process however, and these materials have significant reactivity to RF energy.
Frequently the polarization process isn't the problem. It's tinting that adds to the reactivity of the glass to capacitive conduction. Most factory tinting is done along the top edge of the glass, at the same location where you would want to mount a through glass antenna.
Another problem that can arise is the defroster grid found on some rear automotive glass.
I have had good luck mounting through glass antennas on smaller side windows, but this creates a distorted radiation pattern that is undesirable for HF use. In higher frequencies (cell phones) the effects are not as severe.
These antennas are only useful for a small number of cases where you absolutely must have a small antenna, or it must conform to a certain "appearance" for the vehicle. If you use any amount of power over 20 watts, the performance of these antennas is greatly diminished.
For the few rare cases where you absolutely can have only one antenna, I recomend replacing the factory antenna with one tuned for the frequency you intend to use, and then using a matching harness to attach that antenna to both the transmitter and the factory stereo. Years ago these were quite common. They are much more rare today, and may require that you build one youself.
The only real way to find out what will work for your application is to try. There are tests that you can do, but these require several pieces of equipment not normally found in your average CB toolkit.
Have fun, and keep smiling.
Romstar |
Patzerozero
Senior Member
Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 3555
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 5:02 pm: |
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IMRON is PAINT....that they (used to) use on airplanes.... |
Romstar
Junior Member
Username: Romstar
Post Number: 26
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 11:37 pm: |
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Specifically, Imron is a DuPont two part polyurethane paint that is still used on airplanes and other high duty surfaces. Most commonly on heavy equipment and large truck fleets.
It is a very hard paint when properly mixed and applied over proper body prep. It's application on aircraft (and the space shuttles) was most likely due to it's resistance to severe temperature changes.
You are unlikely to find Imron on any sort of consumer or passenger vehicle.
Although it might be funny to see the Imron name attached to an antenna. I wonder how you would advertise THAT?
Romstar |
Unit199
Intermediate Member
Username: Unit199
Post Number: 448
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 12:32 pm: |
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Are we talking about radios or are we getting a lesson on Imron paint????
HARVE
UNIT199
CEF210
CVC18
KB0YVK
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