| Author |
Message |
    
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 1173
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 11:14 pm: | 
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hi guys, i just acquired a wilson 1000 trunk lip mount antenna from a friend who never even installed it!
this antenna is NEW!
since i needed a CB in the YL's car for when i use it, i decided to mount this antenna on the trunk and put one of my 148gtl's in the car.
my install went well and i decided to put the KL300p in the car as i am not using it currently.
i did it all right; 8ga wire for the amp, noise filter, good grounds. i put a new 4 ga wire from the neg. terminal to the frame.
onto the antenna issue.
the antenna is connected directly to the radio for the initial SWR tests. the meter in the radio is confirmed accurate.
i added a 1" braided strap from the trunk lid to the vehicle body, and another one from the allen screws on the antenna base to another point on the vehicle body.
here's the deal; i cant get the SWR below 1.8 or so.
it seems to be the same across the band. i dont have freqs in this radio to check outside the band.
wired through the amp or direct to radio, it makes no difference.
with the amp on, it goes up to 2.1, again, across the whole band.
raising and lowering antenna in the base had little if any effect.
so the question is: has anyone here ever used a trunk lip mount wilson 1000?
did you have to cut the whip?
i want to make sure i dont have other issues before i start cutting the whip.
any input is appreciated,
matt |
Alsworld
Advanced Member
Username: Alsworld
Post Number: 985
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 12:16 am: |
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KV,
before you cut anything, lets talk. Here is my story and it's all within recent memory (2 weeks).
I have a friend who has a Dodge Intrepid, trunk mount Wilson 1000. SWR's are high, around the same ballpark you are seeing (no amp). We adjusted the stinger over and over to obtain something related to a normal "curve". His vehicle just did not want to cooperate. Funny thing is the SWR's will change from location to location, from 1.5 to 1.8, with no buildings around, just another part of town. And, when it rains, the SWR's go down. Dry they go back up to 1.7-1.8.
Just today he received and installed a longer whip from Wilson (extended whip?) that has lowered his SWR's to 1.4.
But, for something as simple as setting SWR's on a Wilson 1000, this has me stumped. I grounded his trunk with 3/4" braid and the SWR's went up! Okay, obviously not a success.
Bottom line is his antenna is brand new, mount is new, radio is new, etc. Wilson website mentions some problems related to his type of vehicle, but not his specifically, so he is concerned. I know he is fine with 1.4, but the situation I am dealing with here sure sounds like yours. Before today, it was always 1.7 -2.0 with the ocassional 1.5.
I think it's all grounding, but what type of vehicle are you running? His, the electronic trunk lock definetly affects the SWR's. Open 1/2" and the SWR's drop, closed it & jumps up.
Crazy...
Alsworld |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 1175
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 2:44 am: |
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thanks for the come back al!
this situation is perplexing to say the least. im glad to hear im not the only one.
the vehicle is a 1990 ford taurus. no electronic stuff in the trunk.
this car has only seen las vegas weather so i doubt i have rust issues.
i was wondering about the longer whip, but with no real "curve" to go by; i dont know that this would help.
trust me, i do NOT want to cut the whip, as i know i shouldnt have to.
from what ive read; i definitely have a grounding issue, but i cant see what else i could do.
i will put a strap from the trunk body to the frame, but it looks as though the connection is already good.
im still stumped, but i'll experiment more tomorrow and post the results.
anyone else with some real world experience dealing with the wilson 1000 truck lip mount antenna is highly encouraged to post.
matt |
Marconi
Advanced Member
Username: Marconi
Post Number: 589
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 3:57 am: |
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Hey KV if you have ever played with the ground plane on a 1/4 wave antenna, which really needs a good ground plane) then you will understand a little about what you are dealing with here. Alsworth story sounds about the same as yours.
What we need to understand in a mobile installation is what the antenna sees as a ground plane. It really matters not, what we think the antenna should see as the GP, because we cannot see RF. I don't know how to fix your problem either, but I know that you have a problem. Just jumping in there, starting to cut (the all around best answer in the world to getting good control over those pesky SWR) is absolutely not even reasonable to consider at the point in understanding that you have give us. But, not to worry, a million other users of this idea couldn’t make it all bad; unless you follow their lead and just start to cut.
IMO, first thing I would question is the inherent weakness in almost all mobile installations, the antenna mounts. It the mount won’t pass RF well then there nothing much you can do that will make such a system work well. Those two little old screw tips holding that punk like mount on dose not give me much confidence that it will work well enough for what you want, with an amplifier and all that suff in line. Plus some of these little new cars hardly have any real welds in them at all any more. So don’t look for much of a ground plane being established from panel to panel in them. A welder or a welding machine makes or cost a lot more money than a guy or a machine putting glue and caulk of body panel all day long. I will also bet you that the design engineers don’t give a hoot (a minutes worth of thought) to making these new modern autos work well for a transmitting radio and for sure a CB radio.
This is just something else to consider unless there is something else wrong with the antenna. I would think even a magnet mount would work better than that and for sure it is better than cutting.
What if it needed to be longer? Do any of you guys ever consider the need to be longer? Naw! that is just not possible with them gready manufactures selling them fully tunable mobile CB antennas.
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Semi
Junior Member
Username: Semi
Post Number: 15
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 9:53 am: |
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Kid
I've had the exact same situation with mine. Nothing I did, raising or lowering antenna made any difference. Finally changed to a 3/8 trunk mount and used a whip I had sitting around and it's a lot better. Used to get a lot of noise in recieve with 1000 but changing mount and whip decreased it by about 90%.
Just wanted to let you know that you are not the only one. Didn't really care for the 1000 that much.
Take care
Semi |
Georgeodjungle
Junior Member
Username: Georgeodjungle
Post Number: 31
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 2:12 pm: |
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before you cut the whip!
i'd add a lil peice of wire at the top like a paper clip.
you know just to add a inch or so to the top.
got alligator clip?
check swr,
if swr goes up then cut.
also:
coax with ohm meter.
center wire to ground should be around 2.5 ohms.
with antenna on.
or
you can tune the amp like a match box.
but still would not perform like it should.
or
check with other radio.
or
get a better antenna.
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Thumper11463
New member
Username: Thumper11463
Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 5:24 pm: |
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If you go to Wilsons site they have some info on this vehicle and the steps to aleve this problem,I hope this helps |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 9287
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 5:45 pm: |
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CLICK on the LINK below for Wilson Antenna Technical Support.
WILSON ANTENNAS
Hope this helps,
Lon
Tech808
CEF808
N9CEF |
Dale
Intermediate Member
Username: Dale
Post Number: 312
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 7:48 pm: |
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well i gotta mag mount wilson ive found they tune betteron the center of the roof vs the trunk just my experience .can ya mount that one on the roof im thinking ya can if so id definately do that my opion
dale/cef426 |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 1182
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 11:34 pm: |
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if the mount can be converted, i might just drill a hole and mount it on the roof, i dont know if this is possible or not.
dont worry guys! im not going to cut the whip, i go by the old addage of "you can always cut more hair off, but it takes a long time to grow back!"
im just frustrated.
havent had a chance to mess with it yet, hopefully tomorrow will be less hectic.
marconi, i agree!
i will do some experimenting (not cutting) and post the results.
glad im not the only one.
thank you EVERYONE who responded, i am taking all these posts into considration,
matt |
Alsworld
Advanced Member
Username: Alsworld
Post Number: 986
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 8:49 pm: |
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KV,
we messed with his antenna a bit yesterday with his new whip (the longer one for the 1000). He had already trimmed about an inch off prior to arriving, but it's still longer than the whip that came stock with the antenna. I agree with Marconi about not cutting it.
As of yesterday, it was a dead flat 1.6 all the way through the band. If he goes somewhere else, it may drop to a 1.5, or even a 1.4 sometimes. Yes, it really bounces around and makes little sense. To me, tuning SWR's is easy, but yeah this one is causing me to scratch my head. At least other people have seen this same situation.
I think Marconi has it nailed with the trunk lip mount and an odd shaped ground plane. I sure would like to try a mag mount for general purposes.
Alsworld |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 1188
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 12:33 am: |
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i definitely do not like the sharp bend the coax has to make using the trunk lip mount. not sure if its causing any problems, i just dont like it.
i have checked the wilson site, and have already taken the steps that they suggest.
im going to move it around on the trunk and try more grounding.
when i get a free second!
thanks for all the help guys,
matt |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 1214
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 11:36 pm: |
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update:
i have been using the radio and amp for a week now, and i have to say that with an average SWR of 1.5 with the occasional 1.7, im fine with it!
it works, i get great reports on it, and im happy.
i will say that i have been looking at the antenna, and it seems as though i can use it for a roof mount as it is by just removing it from the trunk lip bracket. i want to do this, but i will wait until i can replace the coax.
i dont like the RG 58u that came with it, and i want to replace it with LMR240.
has anyone here ever dealt with the ford fuel pump noise?
its my only problem. (i have been reading on the net already)
matt |
Kmt36264
Junior Member
Username: Kmt36264
Post Number: 12
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 12:40 am: |
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You were probably right to ground the trunk lid but maybe the antenna mount is not making contact. Either tighten the screws till they cut through the paint or remove some paint from the underside. Or, take a short piece of braid and slip it between the antenna base and the rubber bushing (or under the mounting screws). Attach the other end to the rear deck. |
Kmt36264
Junior Member
Username: Kmt36264
Post Number: 13
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 12:42 am: |
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I almost forgot. You need an antenna analyzer. Maybe you can borrow one from a shop if you are not planning to buy one. |
Dale
Intermediate Member
Username: Dale
Post Number: 326
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 7:14 pm: |
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if yor whip is too long you CAN cut it but only
1/16 of an inch at a time i did it with mine
i had a 1.7 on 40 and 1.4 on ch1. now i gotta
1.2on ch1 and 1.3 on ch40.didnt wanna cut anymore ...lol but thats was on a mag mount on roof. i think you definately need 2 ground your trunk lid. ground it 2 frame.btw are ya checking
your swr with amp inline cause starting out ya shouldnt just radio and swr meter.or better yet
use an antenna anylzer |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 1218
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 9:57 pm: |
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the SWR is the same whether the amp is inline or not.
an analyzer would be nice; not sure if i can borrow one around here.
i grounded the trunk lid to the body, and i also put one right on the trunk lid mount to a different section of the body. the little allen screws are biting into the copper strap.
next step is to mount it on the roof!
matt |
Alsworld
Advanced Member
Username: Alsworld
Post Number: 990
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 9:36 pm: |
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KV, I still feel your pain dealing with my friends vehicle. He did receive a incredible email from Wilson where they broke down every question he had line by line. Bottom line they suspected grounding as well, but the more research he and I have done, there are just some funky cars that are hard to diagnose.
FWIW, I did put my MFJ 259B analyzer on there and it read the same as what he is seeing on the radio meter (which also matches an external SWR meter). Although I have not tried it with this newer whip, I am beginning to believe it may be the best it's gonna get. He does not want to drill holes in this nice car.
I really do feel your pain, and yes folks, this isn't a normal tuning situation. Something is up. I wish I could be more helpful.
And oh, on his vehicle, there are no amps inline. But...maybe this may raise an eyebrow, my MFJ is reading his coax at 60+ ohms. If memory serves me correctly, 62-64 ohms at the lowest reactance. It's stock Wilson coax on a brand new 1000?
Alsworld |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 1223
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 12:02 am: |
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al, i am definitely raising an eyebrow.
could it be that wilson got a run of cheap or bad coax?!
picture the braid of this cheap coax being bent around the trunk lip mount and not covering the dilectric fully.
i dont know!
i definitely want to replace the coax to find out for sure.
i also have a noise issue with the fuel pump. (pretty common in this model)
im hoping that better sheilded coax will help this too.
seems to me that 60ohm coax would be close to a 2 to 1 SWR. HHMMMMMM!!!!
thanks al, lets get to the bottom of this one!
matt |
Alsworld
Advanced Member
Username: Alsworld
Post Number: 991
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 10:09 pm: |
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KV,
my friends coax also has that sharp bend. But we wiggled and such and even moved it around without a change. Being it's always like that and not flexing, that may not be the cause.
I am asking here, but I seem to remember Bruce saying that if you were to run 75 ohm coax (like RG-59 or RG-6, TV/Cable coax), it would only run the SWR up to 1.5:1 in a perfect world (perfect 50 ohm antenna and such).
I know.....more questions than answers, but at least we are spuring some thoughts "outside the box". I agree 100% it's quite challenging and I like that.
The next time he comes over (maybe this weekend), I am going to throw a trimag mount rigged with LMR-240 on his trunk and try both my Predator 10K and a 102"whip w/spring and see what we get for grins. On my truck roof, a near perfect match on the Predator 10K (52 ohms, zero reactance). I will try and write down both it and the whip, then install on his car and see what we get. At least I have confidence in my mount, and pre-testing and documenting both antennas on my vehicle prior to mounting on his trunk, maybe it will lead me down the right path (is the trunk grounded well enough?), is it a ground plane issue? (might be hard to compare these three in that aspect with the Wilson being a base loaded antenna), but hey, anything is worth trying for experimentation purposes.
I am not sure about a bad batch of coax, just maybe the antenna/coax/mount issue works on 95% of the vehicles, but not with the other 5% we are talking about? But, that is only another yet untested/unanswered question.
I dig troubleshooting and rule out nothing as of yet so I will keep you informed of what I find. Any other suggestions folks?
Alsworld |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 1226
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 11:27 pm: |
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al, i think you are right about the coax impedance issue.
i think i just have that 3 to 1 at 75 ohms crud stuck in my head.
bruce has already set me straight about that once!
i also dont like their "connector". i have no basis for not liking it, i just dont!
i ordered my LMR240 today.
i have to do the brakes on this car before i drill a hole in the roof, or you might see my 2000GTL flying across the night sky.
i hope your tests go well, and remember to put down a few dryer sheets on your buddy's car before you stick that mag mount on.
sure, WE know that the paint will be fine, but that initial Ker-Plunk can scare a newbie!
have a good one,
matt |
Alsworld
Advanced Member
Username: Alsworld
Post Number: 992
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 12:29 pm: |
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KV,
we played with his setup for awhile yesterday, but did not do what I had wanted. Instead, he brought over a new KL 300P to install. We installed it with a 6 ft RG-8X jumper and the SWR's barely move on the radio meter, and hit about a 1.2 on an external meter.
As we know, tuning SWR's by adding/reducing coax is quite a cheesy way of seeing lower numbers. Many call it "tricking the system", however after seeing his coax impedance on my MFJ, I figured a jumper may help. Being he wanted to install a little foot warmer, a jumper was needed anyway.
Much better SWR's and he is happy. I know in a perfect world adding lengths of coax should never be required. But after playing with his setup previously, things sure seemed far from perfect.
Alsworld |
Dale
Intermediate Member
Username: Dale
Post Number: 332
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 2:27 pm: |
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i think that the trunk should have been grounded
2 frame instead opf body.also i was always under the impression the roof is the way 2 go rather
its a mag mount or thru roof. |
Alsworld
Advanced Member
Username: Alsworld
Post Number: 993
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 7:12 pm: |
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Dale,
Roger on the roof mount. If it was my vehicle (like my truck), it would be dead center of the roof and we would have had no problems I bet. He did not want to drill through the roof of his car, or have coax from a mag mount running through door jams and such. His choice, and it looks nice for sure. Just a bear to tune the trunk lip mount on this vehicle.
That car has some strange grounding issues. If it were mine, I would have to spend weeks bonding everything with braid. Of course, I would have drilled through the trunk if I wanted it mounted there.
Alsworld |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 1344
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 9:02 pm: |
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UPDATE!
problem solved!
i still cant say exactly why the install on the trunk lid had a higher SWR (1.7) but it did.
today i replaced the coax with LMR-240 and drilled a hole smack dab in the center of the roof.
mounted the antenna there and whammo!
swr was 1.2 to one on 1 and 40 and barely moves on 20.
fuel pump noise is all but gone! pretty sure the double sheilded coax took care of that, but changing locations didnt hurt. noise used to be a constant S3 whine with the car running (annoying!)
and now, i can still hear the tone of it if i turn the volume all the way up and listen real close, but the needle doesnt even move anymore. this i can definitely deal with.
ONE LAST ISSUE!
please dont laugh at me too hard, but i stupidly assumed that Rad Shak would have a PL-259 and a UG-176 reducer. NO SUCH LUCK!
the only thing i could find was a solderless, twist on connector. YUK!
needing to test the install, i used the connector and all was good, until i turned the KL300p on.
the SWR went up to almost 3!
with amp off, 1.1. amp on, 3!
so im pretty darn sure that the connector i used just cant "take the heat", or is not making a good enough connection to the braid of the coax.
can anyone put my mind at ease as to whether or not this is the cause?
everything else seems great.
thanks to all that offered their help on this,
matt |
Alsworld
Advanced Member
Username: Alsworld
Post Number: 997
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 12:15 pm: |
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Good Deal KV. Friday night I drilled the hole dead center of my Silverado and mounted a Predator 10K on a Predator mount. Used a nice thick backing plate underneath the roof, and all the coax in my truck from jumpers to the antenna is LMR-240. I chose to go with a ring terminal mount myself (personal preference, that's all).
Fine tuned the antenna now that I have my MFJ-259B and also used an external SWR meter. Wow that antenna tunes some low SWR's across some bandwidth! Wife thought I was crazy, I call it success. Maybe I'll post some pictures.
Alsworld |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 1349
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 10:56 pm: |
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if my car wasnt so ugly; i'd post some pics of it.
but hey, its got a strong engine, starts everyday, and gets 20MPG in the city. i think i'll keep it for a while.
one thing i found out in my part searches is that this car (ford taurus) has a 100amp alternator stock!
can you say 4 pill?
i was sure it was only 60.
i love the look of the antenna on top of the car!
the YL thinks i am a kook, but then again, she always did anyway. LOL
if i did not already swear by LMR coax, i sure do now!
i truely believe this was the deciding factor in my noise cure.
that fuel pump was ANNOYING!
bought the righ connector today, will put it on tonight or towmorrow. hope it cures the high power issue. i think it will.
post those pics!
matt |
738
Intermediate Member
Username: 738
Post Number: 112
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 7:46 pm: |
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Was planning on getting a 1000 for the wifes car, don't know now about using trunk lip mount now. Don't think it's the antenna? I was messing around and went to stick a 2M mag. mount on her trunk to see what it would look like. Guess what, no stick! Then I touched it, and it flexed like crazy, thought it was plastic. It's a 96 Taurus (BTW), after doing some magnet testing, and scraping I found out that the only ferrious metal on the trunk lid is the mild steel arms that raise it. The whole trunk lid, frame, and skin are aluminum! Not the best conductor, has an anttenuation to magnetic waves, and very hard to make a good electrical connection to! Ask any electrician about aluminium connections/wire. I just started to research the antenna, and saw this thread. Got some more researching to do, may not be the antenna at all? I did the magnet test on roof, and it is mild steel, that would explain why it works up there. I am sure most modern car are similar. Got to go do some more research............ |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 1814
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 10:55 pm: |
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well, the antenna is roof mounted now and has a 1.1 to 1 SWR.
it was all about the mount and the groundplane the trunk lid provided, or didnt provide as was the case with my install.
the trunk lip mount puts a big sharp bend in the coax right as it leaves the mount, and while i cant say for sure, i think that this contributed to the SWR mismatch.
never stuck a magnet on the truck of my 90 taurus to see if its alum. but i will try, just out of curiosity.
now, the magnet wont stick to the alum. but aluminum is a much better conductor of electricity than steel isnt it?
arent all beam antennas made of aluminum?
i would say that the wilson 1000 mag mount will work quite well on the roof of that car.
just be sure to tie in the trunk and hood with ground straps.
good luck,
matt |
Alsworld
Senior Member
Username: Alsworld
Post Number: 1005
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 11:21 pm: |
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738,
if you look deep into the technical sections of Wilson's website, they have had problems with their trunk mount installs on your vehicle.
You are wise doing your homework.
Alsworld |
738
Intermediate Member
Username: 738
Post Number: 113
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 2:01 am: |
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Thanks for the replys. I have found the issue on the Wilson site, without a clear answer. Still re-searching my options, may just have to put one on top. Sort of want to keep her car looking nice. Good idea about bonding hood and trunk. BTW what I meant about alum. conductivity, should have been stated as connectivity. Alum. is very hard to bond to electrically, being so soft it compresses under harder metal like a mounting screw for example. Can't be soldered, and builds a oxide (that's where the pentrox stuff comes in) that seems to be even worse with a mixed metal bond. At best mounting to a alum. trunk lid, with all the paint, mixed metal, etc. would be a pain. Will keep studying mounting for it, and if I got to go through top I will... Better yet She can trade it to me for my old solid metal 78 chevy van in the yard (smile) |
Dale
Intermediate Member
Username: Dale
Post Number: 489
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 11:32 am: |
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wilsos antennas work better on roof.i got a 5k mag mount on thevtrunk of my dodge spirit i gotta 1.7 at center band .moved antenna to roof gotta a 1.2 at center band.ive done this with all my vehicles and wilsons that ive been using in tthe last 15years coincidence could be but i dought that |
Semi
Junior Member
Username: Semi
Post Number: 20
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 12:05 am: |
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Kid
I know this an old thread but if your still checking it I just wanted to add that I had the same situation as your original problem. Tried different whip adjustments and it made no difference. Swr seemed to be about 1.5 from the get go so I left it alone.
Mounted on a Mercury[ford family] Grand Marquis.
Must be a typical thing with 1000.
JMHO
Semi |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 1858
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 1:23 am: |
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yeah, i think it has to do with the trunk lip mount.
thanks for the reply,
matt |
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