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Message |
    
Boxcar
Intermediate Member
Username: Boxcar
Post Number: 367
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 6:08 am: | 
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I have a quick question. I am in the midst of grounding my equipment out and need to know if copper plated type rods will work just as well as a solid copper rod when inserting into the ground? I've seen people use these copper plated rods and was curious if they work just as well. Here's what I am going to use. Copper strap connected to all equipment leading to a 1 foot copper plated 3/4 inch bus bar. 4 gage solid copper wire ran to outside copper plated ground bars. 3 foot triangle diameter. Does this sound right? I am having difficulties trying to find anyone that sells all solid copper rods if I need those, let me know. Thanks! |
Hotwire
Advanced Member
Username: Hotwire
Post Number: 872
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 10:12 am: |
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You may try an eletrician supply store. I use just regular copper clad rods myself, seem to work ok although I;m sure solid would be better and costly at that. They say the copper clad rods start to oxidize soon after you bury them and lose there conductivity. If your using more than one one rod I wouldn't worry. I use 3 around my pushup pole and one for the equipment grounding. |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1204
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 6:18 pm: |
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I prefer solid rods since they last much longer.
Make sure that if you use multiple rods, you keep them at LEAST as far away from each other as they are long. |
Boxcar
Intermediate Member
Username: Boxcar
Post Number: 368
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 7:52 pm: |
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I am throwing the idea around of a 3 x 3 x 3 foot trianglar pattern. I Have a cb buddy that said this would work great but the wider the better. I am actually thinking of installing these ground rods in my sunken basement window. It's about 3-4 feet below the ground as it is so that would help further into the soil I think. Only thing is they would be shy of the 3 feet triangular pattern because the width of that basement window is right at 3 feet. I was thinking of putting one ground rod up top on each side of the concrete by the window and there I could get the 6 feet triangular pattern. What do you think?
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Hotwire
Advanced Member
Username: Hotwire
Post Number: 878
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 9:08 am: |
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If I had my ground rods spread out 8 feet from one another I would be tripping and mowing over rod tips and cables. Suppose I could bury it all but my goodness that would be a mess. All the length of ground cables would get expensive too. Tech 833 I trust your advice sir but this time I have to compromise and keepem just a couple feet apart. I am grounded to like 10 miles of chain link fence so maybe that will help?
Boxcar sorry about the hijack, Sounds like your plan will work at least better than mine. |
Boxcar
Intermediate Member
Username: Boxcar
Post Number: 369
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 4:58 pm: |
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Not a problem Hotwire! I am beginning to wonder if I'll ever find solid copper ground rods. I know copper is a better conducter for grounding as far as being solid goes, but everyone around here sells only the plated kind that's galvanized underneath. Does anyone know if this will be that much of a difference than running solid copper? I would really like to get these in the ground soon. Weather permitting that is!!  |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 1171
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 10:29 pm: |
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im not sure on this, but it seems to me that if you had a solid copper ground rod that it would bend and crush way before you got it into the ground.
copper is a great conductor, but it is very soft.
also remember that when dealing with RF, that it travels on the surface of the conductor not through the middle. its called "skin effect". so pounding a copper plumbing pipe into the ground would be just as good, if you could get it all the way into the ground.
matt |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1207
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 9:57 am: |
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Hotwire, I will not be hurt if you do it differently! Ha ha! The reason I suggested keeping the rods seperated by a distance equal to or greater than their length is because they will tend to cancel eather other out if you don't. Sorta like the way co-phased antennas cancel each other out off the sides of the vehicle and not off the front/back. You would be better off with a single rod than you would with 3 rods close to each other.
Kid, Yes, RF travels ofer the surface. However, when copper rods are in the ground, they begin to corrode and leech into the soil. This helps with conductivity, but also shortens the life of a thinly plated rod. Once the copper is gone through cuprous oxide leeching, then your surface area becomes more resistive than it was before and your rod becomes less effective by magnitudes.
'Solid' copper rods have a copper/metal alloy in the middle to stiffen them. They are not made of soft copper! That would be funny trying to pound a soft copper rod into the ground!! Might as well hammer some spaghetti in the ground. |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 1172
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 9:45 pm: |
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i wasnt sure if there was such a thing paul. thanks for the clarification.
i have heard of people pounding in a ground rod and then sleeving a copper pipe over the ground rod, but id never get that done with the soil here.
later,
matt |
Hotwire
Advanced Member
Username: Hotwire
Post Number: 883
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 8:02 am: |
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OK 833 I understand. You sure are right about the copper clad rods. You ever see old rods that have been in use for years for house grounding? RUSTY! |
Vanillagorilla
Intermediate Member
Username: Vanillagorilla
Post Number: 467
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 9:10 am: |
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Stupid question time....
Going back to the "one ground rod" theory...
Rather than running a ground strap as much as 10ft across my basement ceiling then out the window to a spike...any reason I could'nt keep it shorter and drill and spike my wall OR basement floor? The water table is not an issue. I could spike horizontally through the wall 8ft below ground level OR directly through the floor vertical. (then seal it up good and PRAY wifey never sees it! )
Ideas here? The hammer drill is warming up! |
Hotwire
Advanced Member
Username: Hotwire
Post Number: 892
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 10:07 am: |
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I bet it will work! Better stick a potato on the drill first so the wife does not hear the racket. You know makeshift silencer? Being a NewYorker this information should be encrypted into your DNA!  |
Vanillagorilla
Intermediate Member
Username: Vanillagorilla
Post Number: 468
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 11:44 am: |
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..wait a minut..wat dat upoze to mean? You gotta pralum wit lawnguylan?...'sides I'm only HALF Eye-talian
Hank   |
Tech291
Moderator
Username: Tech291
Post Number: 362
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 7:15 pm: |
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Hank,
If you were to take a lightning hit ,would you want that directed behind your desk?
TECH291
CEF#291
KC8ZPJ |
Vanillagorilla
Intermediate Member
Username: Vanillagorilla
Post Number: 471
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 9:48 pm: |
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Good point..wasn't thinking THAT way. Was thinking more about simply grounding the equipment for static and such. WAS kind of hoping the lightning would be redirected via the antenna ground spikes. TOLD you it was a stupid question!
Suppose another rearrangment is in order to simply move the equipment closer to the window to shorten the path to ground.
The way I understand it the shorter the ground patch the better. Furthermore the closer I get to 1/4 wave in length the more likely it'll counteract the ground and act more like an antenna. |
Road_warrior
Senior Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 1232
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 1:24 am: |
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I have my ground-rods spread out like Tech
833 mentions above. To close they just cancel
each other out.
I use Copper clad rods, but, they rust quick. Solid copper would be better. I read somewhere that 10ft rods should be used. Mine are
the 8 ft rods. |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1212
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 4:04 pm: |
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RW, 8 foot rods are just fine.
Hank, Th idea is to have the best grounding you can at the base of the antenna, and then good grounding and bonding where your cables enter the building. This is done with a ground bus and Polyphasers. The idea is to keep lightning OUT of the shack. Ground all your equipment together to a small equipment-only ground bus and then run a large dia wire from the equipment ground bus bar to your Polyphaser ground bus. Then, you're all set!
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Boxcar
Intermediate Member
Username: Boxcar
Post Number: 372
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 8:51 pm: |
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Well I tried the grounding thing and I still am having the neighbors hear me. I hope I did this right. 3 copper plates rods 8 feet in the ground in a trangular formation at 3 feet apart from each rod. 4 gauge copper wire going inside to a 1 foot cut off piece of copper rod and copper straps connected to all radio equipment. Hmmm? I wonder if I missed a step????????? |
Road_warrior
Senior Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 1238
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 9:16 pm: |
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Rods should be at least 8 ft apart from
each other. Read Tech 833 post above: 3rd
post down from the top.
What kind of RFI/TVI interference you having
with your neighbors Boxcar? |
Boxcar
Intermediate Member
Username: Boxcar
Post Number: 373
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 9:32 pm: |
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I'm not sure if I can do the 8 feet apart thing without it taking up too much space. I have a cb buddy that his is 3 feet and he has no problems. He also runs the rg213 coax which is my next step to purchase to try and get this under control. As far as the neighbors go, it's just a little t.v. set they have in their kitchen that has a bult in fm radio. So I'm wondering if that's why because it has the built in radio. they're really cool about it too. They say it's no big deal but it's a new neighborhood so I'm not wanting to step on any toes just in case. I have my sights set on some rg213 or 9913 coax and we'll take it from there. Appreciate the input road warrior!!!!!!!!! |
Boxcar
Intermediate Member
Username: Boxcar
Post Number: 374
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 9:37 pm: |
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Oh, I forgot to add that I wanted to write down everything that's inline and connected so here we go. Radio, 200 watt low pass filter, amp, meter, 1000 watt low pass filter, then antenna. Everything is grounded with copper strap that runs to a 1 foot piece of that copper rod(plated) then 4 gauge copper wire out to the rods. I wonder if 2 low pass filters is overkill but just wanted to make sure. Not sure if that helps but just wanted to throw that out there again. How far do these copper rods supposed to stick out of the ground? I was thinking an inch or two at the most. |
Road_warrior
Senior Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 1239
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 7:35 am: |
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All my rods and wire is buried beneath the
ground. So, no tripping or whacking it off
with the lawn mower..LOL...
If using multiple rods, try spacing them at
least 8 ft or they will just cancel each
other out during a strike. Only need one
low pass filter. |
Hotwire
Advanced Member
Username: Hotwire
Post Number: 916
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 9:18 am: |
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Get some of that rg213 coax Boxcar. Thats what I'm upgrading to in hopes to cure my issues. |
Boxcar
Intermediate Member
Username: Boxcar
Post Number: 375
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 10:06 pm: |
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I think I might try and get a hold of some of that 9913 belden coax. It has double the shielding on it. |
Wildrat
Advanced Member
Username: Wildrat
Post Number: 787
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 5:15 pm: |
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Boxcar if you are using the Paradynamics TVI filter after the amp it is only 1kw PEP. If you are throwing more 1kw at it, it will burn up eventually. The more power thrown at it the faster it will go. You can ask me how Iknow or read my post on it, that I have posted already on this forum topic. |
Wildrat
Advanced Member
Username: Wildrat
Post Number: 788
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 5:24 pm: |
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By the way Boxcar I have copper, copper plated, and the galvanized or zinc coated rods in the ground. I am not to concerned about longevity with the rods as I believe they will outlast me which is about another 40 + years. You can get 4ga. solid copper wire in a 25' box at Lowes for around 9 bucks. It is cheaper buying it this way than buying it by the foot. Your ground rod triangle is good, except they should be separated from each other by the length of the rod. You can find plenty on grounding by doing a Goggle search. I also use Coppers SIG RG-213 on my system it is fine. Save the money from the 9913 and buy another ground rod or two, or even a PolyPhaser. |
Vanillagorilla
Intermediate Member
Username: Vanillagorilla
Post Number: 495
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 7:31 pm: |
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Box...sounds more to me like the power cord or antenna feeding their TV/radio is picking you up! Maybe they need a small ferrite clip-on added to the TV? Maybe a hi-pass filter inline on that end if its cable fed?
Sounds like your doing almost anything possible but may be overlooking the obvious? Is it JUST that one neighbor and JUST that TV? |
