| Author |
Message |
    
Black_hawk
Junior Member
Username: Black_hawk
Post Number: 13
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 4:37 pm: | 
|
Hey guys.
I have another post in coax section of the forum which sort of relates to this one.
The street that I live on is row homes.
I have an A99 with the four ground radials 8 foot copper ground rod heavy copper ground wire.The wire is solid has three individual twisted wires.
Uniden HR2510 and a magna 600 amp.Plus a old b&w low pass filter.
I'm not causing any TVI in my home.I'm not sure if I cause any interference to my neighbors.
I don't know if I should ground my equipment like most people do.The radio room is on the third floor and will require 35 -45 feet or so of ground wire but I read that only very short ground wire should be used.
Thanks for your help and suggestions. |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 8875
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 4:48 pm: |
|
Black_hawk,
This is a very easy question to answer.
GROUND EVERYTHING. 
Lon
Tech808
CEF808
N9OSN
|
Wildrat
Advanced Member
Username: Wildrat
Post Number: 596
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 7:04 pm: |
|
Black Hawk
I live on the ground and I have 9 ground rods, 300-400 feet of 4ga solid copper ground wire running all over the place and I still have not got to my equipment yet. I am close though I just need to put another pass thru in the wall to put the copper thru for the equipment ground buss. Like Lon says ground everything!
Wildrat
CEF674
EGCCC |
Road_warrior
Senior Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 1131
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 7:47 pm: |
|
3rd floor may require a counterpoise ground
for your equipment instead of regular way
of equipment grounding. |
Road_warrior
Senior Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 1132
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 9:02 pm: |
|
I tried to find info on how to ground
equipment if it's on the 3rd floor.
To many conflicting articles. I thought a
radio ground had to be less than 9 ft for
11 meters.
Maybe Tech 833 will shed light on this: |
Tech291
Moderator
Username: Tech291
Post Number: 337
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 9:17 pm: |
|
Road warrior,
Your on the right track,do a websearch for "counterpoise ground"
TECH291
CEF#291
KC8ZPJ |
Kid_vicious
Advanced Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 990
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 06, 2006 - 12:30 am: |
|
if i was in your situation i would buy the artificial RF ground from MFJ and then just make sure everything is electrically grounded.
matt |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1146
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 06, 2006 - 9:38 am: |
|
The MFJ artificial ground is a band-aid trying to close a compound fracture wound.
A couterpoise ground is a good idea. The problem in this case is if you run a single ground wire down from your 3rd floor shack to a ground rod, you stand the chance of the ground wire itself radiating.
The alternative would be to run multiple ground rods at each corner of your home and run vertical wire up each corner of the house to a ring of copper wire around the roof eaves. Then, bond all your equipment to that ring. Look up 'halo ground'. That would be the way we would do it at a commercial radio site. |
Rldrake
Junior Member
Username: Rldrake
Post Number: 20
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 3:53 am: |
|
There are basicly 3 types of grounds. Electrical safety ground. Static electricity ground (lightening). RF ground. Since TVI is mentioned as a concern it would seem that you are talking RF ground (although in very rare ocassions the safety ground could produce limited TVI). Unless there is damage to the unbalanced feedline or connectors, or substandard shielding in the unbalanced feedline, there is no need for an additional RF ground. With the exception of "random length" and "long wire" antennas, the RF ground is already part of the antenna...as in your case your "eight radials". An unneeded RF ground could actually cause TVI by creating a ground loop. MFJ's "artificial ground" that was mentioned is for unbalanced, open wire antennas... and works quite well for its intended purpose if a coventional counterpoise is not available for some reason...but your vertical is not such an antenna. |
Silverfox
New member
Username: Silverfox
Post Number: 8
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 10:43 am: |
|
Man...now I'm REALLY confused. My Imax installation will be on the other side of my house from my radio equipment. Are you guys saying that grounding all my stuff to a ground point at the base of the ant will be too FAR AWAY???? It will be about 50 feet between the ant and radio equipment. Thanks.
Silverfox |
Wildrat
Advanced Member
Username: Wildrat
Post Number: 845
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 12:48 pm: |
|
My equip. is at one end of the house, tower at other end. Tower is grounded at tower, equip. is grounded at the other end of the house where it's at. All the grounds are connected together thru single point grounding. The houses electrical panel, tower, and equipment. Make sure you use polyphasers for your coax. |
Road_warrior
Senior Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 1308
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 1:43 pm: |
|
Silverfox,
Is your equipment on the bottom floor of
your home or a upper level??? |
Road_warrior
Senior Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 1309
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 2:10 pm: |
|
Silverfox,
The groundwire from your equipment to a
outside ground-rod needs to be less than
9 ft. long on 11 meters. (cb channels).
If your equipment is on a upper floor of your
home, this is impossible to do. Which is what
they are talking about in the above posts.
Other means of grounding is required.
For an effective radio ground the equipment
should be located on the bottom level of your
home and near a outside wall to obtain the
less then 9ft length required for the radio
ground.
I suggest you make another post and direct your
question like this: Specify exactly where you
have your radio equipment/ what floor it's on/
and as many details as you can on your installation. |
Marconi
Advanced Member
Username: Marconi
Post Number: 634
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 3:17 pm: |
|
RW is right, it is not reasonable to try and ground that far above the earth. The ground itself will tend to act like an antenna if longer than a resonant length.
AC is one thing, but RF is another and RF does excape the confines of the source and gets into the air, believe it or not. Just ground for safety and for AC and forget about RF grounding guys. You just don't need that much plus how do you tell what is enough and when it works and when it is just a waste of time unless you are building ground mounted radiators. |
Sniper_62881
Junior Member
Username: Sniper_62881
Post Number: 39
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 8:07 pm: |
|
where exactly do you ground the radio equipment?
thanks
marc/cef613 |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 1378
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 11:51 pm: |
|
the radio equip. needs to be grounded to an 8 foot ground rod, that is less than 8ft. from your radio.
the best place to put this ground rod is right outside the room where the radio is, and close to the spot in the room where the radio is. (hopefully the radio is close to an exterior wall)
run a heavy gauge solid copper wire, or copper braid, from the back of the radio to the ground rod. the wire needs to be less than 8ft. long.
if you have other equip. inline, such as a low pass filter, amplifier, power supply, or anything else; these too need to be connected to that outside ground rod.
the best way to do this is to get a grounding buss from the hardware store, run all the equip. ground wires to it, and from it to the outside ground rod.
all the while making sure that there is no run of wire that comes near the 8 foot mark.
then, using solid copper wire, or braid, attach the outside ground rod to the ground rod that is at the base of your antenna mast. (you should have one there, that is connected to the mast pipe for the antenna, or if the mast pipe doesnt make a good electrical connection with the base of the antenna; you should run a solid copper wire (8ga. or bigger) from the base of the antenna to the ground rod at the base of the mast).
then, run a copper wire from whichever ground rod is closer to the AC mains ground for the house, to it, thereby connecting both ground rods to the AC house ground.
thats it.
matt |
Airplane1
Advanced Member
Username: Airplane1
Post Number: 747
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 8:45 am: |
|
If grounds must be as short as possible and under 9ft then why ground an antenna with so long of a ground from top of tower? wont that act as a radiator of RF also and we dont want that.
AP |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 9661
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 10:15 am: |
|
Airplane1,
2" to 4" ground wire or braid from antenna to antenna mounting plate and plate to antenna mast.
Bolt all mast pipe sections together and then use 4" to 6" wire or braid from mast pipe to tower at rotor if you are using one or direct to tower if not using a rotor.
Very Easy.
Lon
Tech808
CEF808
N9CEF
CVC#2 |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 1383
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 7:07 pm: |
|
i wish i could expain it better, but i do know that the answer to that question is NO.
its important to have the ground wires short at the RADIO ground so that the radio doesnt think of the ground wire attached to the back of it as one leg of a dipole.
if that wire gets close to 102", it starts looking very antenna like to the radio.
you want the coax to do its job and leave the signal radiating to the antenna.
since the kind of antennas we are dealing with here, are already resonant, the long connection to ground, be it from the mast or a wire doesnt radiate a signal.
(if the antenna is working properly)
matt |
Sniper_62881
Junior Member
Username: Sniper_62881
Post Number: 46
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 7:47 pm: |
|
Ok thanks that helped some, maybe ill get more info when the time comes aroound.
marc.cef613 |
Airplane1
Senior Member
Username: Airplane1
Post Number: 1090
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 7:53 am: |
|
I know this is an old tread but.I need help with a ground problem and hope Tech 833 sees and can help me with this. I just put my tower up, it is 30ft + 6ft of mast so my maco 5/8 is 36ft to feed point now and ran a ground wire from the base of the 5/8 on the mounting bolt on the antenna down to a 8ft ground rod beside the base of tower.
Now I was having tons of problems after hooking everything up. I was so happy I finally got the tower up and grounded thinking I am set going from 7ft at feed point with no ground to 36ft with ground.
Well I started making contacts far away like 50+ mile, I was so happy but then in comes the XYL. Well let me tell ya she was mad as you know what.
I was killing the tv, I would come accross it very little at times but it was only on my 2970dx and not the ham gear. Well it was all my radios now and instead of comming over a little it was wiping vthe tv out totally, no pic just snow and a loud hum.
Now this stinks as I read that grounds helps tvi go away and the receive get quieter and thoght wow, my 2970dx will stop affecting the tv with the antenna up at 36ft and grounded.
Now I have good clean connections with penatrox, the coax is bury flex low loss sheilded and in great condition and the connectors clean and,dry and new. Well I did not think the ground was the problem, I was trying every thing and going to get the filters and beads to snap on cords, isolating the tv to another circuit and so on till a friend said befor spending the money on all that try disconnecting the ground wire from the rod. Guess what, the problem went away and now the only radio affecting the tv is the 2970dx again and it is not bad, just a few lines but no hum so it is bearable.
Now I need to understand this problem. I know it is working now but that is not good enough for me. I hear and read all the time about the importance of grounding but but it does not work for me.
The big question is WHY????
Thanks, sorry about the spelling.
AP |
Captian_radio
Intermediate Member
Username: Captian_radio
Post Number: 459
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 9:35 am: |
|
Airplane chances are if you are having a problem with only your 10/11 meter rig it is related to harmonics.Most ham gear has much tighter tolerances than the glorified 10/11 meter stuff.You have to remember that 10/11 meter radios are CB radios with 10 meters as an after thought with most likely poor filtering etc.Is there any particular frequency that you are on when this happens?Try a low pass filter on the radio and a high pass filter on the affected equipment. Also make sure that the TV connections are good and be aware that some Brands of TV,s are more sensitive to this problem than others.
Bob CEF451/VE1CZ
Robert L. Spicer The days of radio are just beginning!
|
Airplane1
Senior Member
Username: Airplane1
Post Number: 1091
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 11:01 am: |
|
It is only the 10/11 meter radio when the ground is not hooked up and I realized it is the radio I am using. The ham gear does not do it at all untill the ground is hooked up, then all (you know what) beaks out. the tv goes crazy bad but it is only with the ground hooked up and then it is all radios.
This is what I dont understand!
That is what I dont understand |
Airplane1
Senior Member
Username: Airplane1
Post Number: 1092
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 11:06 am: |
|
Every thing is good, all connections and it does it on all frequncies with my 2 meter through the 10 and 6 meter band on any radio, IC-7000 and IC-V8000 and even my HT on 2 meters.
Only when ground wire is hooked to the ground rod at base of antenna.
AP |
Captian_radio
Intermediate Member
Username: Captian_radio
Post Number: 460
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 5:31 pm: |
|
Airplane I forgot to mention earlier something that you could try is to bury or lay down some ground radials and attach them to to your grounding point.Sometimes this is enough to dissipate any stray RF this will also help in keeping your RF from being absorbed into the earth and help reflect it back up where it belongs.
It's called a ground radial system and is used by many hams.I did it years ago on an inverted L antenna that I used for 160 meters and it improved things quite a bit.Most of my radials were wire simply laid out on the grass in the fall just before the snow. Do you have your antenna on a tower? if so try attaching a ground strap from the antenna to the top of the tower and make sure the tower is well grounded.
Now I have seen this problem before and the only solution was to run without a ground.Why it happens ? could be many reasons, ground wire close to a wave length on what ever band you are on but I still suspect that it is something going on with the house grounding that's acting as an antenna and picking up your RF.
Bob CEF451/VE1CZ
Robert L. Spicer The days of radio are just beginning!
|
Airplane1
Senior Member
Username: Airplane1
Post Number: 1102
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 5:36 pm: |
|
I am going to pound new ground rods in for the house and garage and see if that changes things.
The grounds might be bad.
AP |
Moderator136
Moderator
Username: Moderator136
Post Number: 1113
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 7:10 pm: |
|
Airplane1
Ground rods most are copper plated, Most of the time its the connection to the ground rod . Check that out ! I solder all my conections and put plastic dip over the connections . Iv seen ground rods that has been in the ground for over 40 years and come out looking good. I bet money thats it is not the ground rod its the connection ! Most of the time i see hose clamps (Stainless steel) Hose clamps - they work for awhile then corrosion set in! You have to solder its has to be copper to copper bond. and put plastic dip on the connection. (Ok its like a battery in your car or truck its lead to copper connection and guess what , you go out one day and it dose not start - your thinking dead battery. your wrong its the connection) If most people would put simple grease over the connection it would last long time - or even clean the connnection from time to time.
Anyrate dont spend the money on new ground rods they are pricey (go ahead and check price$$$$) Honest i have pulled ground rods out of the ground that have been in the ground over the years and reused them. Sandpaper and steel wool.
Check your ground rods and ground wires! You might be surprise what you find.
Hope this helps
Hal~Moderator136~KCØSVC
CEF#0136/CEF HAM#23 ~ CVC#0004
|
Airplane1
Senior Member
Username: Airplane1
Post Number: 1104
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 7:33 pm: |
|
Hal, I tried to check the ground rods for the house and the copper wire goes right in the ground. I dug around the wire and cant find the rod, I dont know if the rod is in real deep or there is none.
I will try to dig deeper this week and find them. If they are burried then I think the connection would be bad.
AP |
Moderator136
Moderator
Username: Moderator136
Post Number: 1114
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 7:51 pm: |
|
Yes then it is connection , just find them and redo ! Lot cheaper than putting new ground rods in. Yes its will work , but will pay off in time! I wish i was there to help you. Hope it works!
let me know?
Hal~Moderator136~KCØSVC
CEF#0136/CEF HAM#23 ~ CVC#0004
|
Starface
Senior Member
Username: Starface
Post Number: 2160
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 12:31 am: |
|
Wish I had a few of you guys here to help me when I start to redo (Relocation to another room)my shack after the Holidays.
Good luck Roger.
George
KI4NBE
CEF#Ø476
HAM#Ø181
CVC#ØØ14
|
Airplane1
Senior Member
Username: Airplane1
Post Number: 1107
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 8:03 am: |
|
Thanks guys, I would help you for sure if you were closer Starface.I hate problems but then who dont. I got so many other irons in the fire it is hard to get time to make this right but I will. I wish you were closer Moderator136.
We should have a special Copper antenna force here on copper to travel around the country setting up antennas, stations and grounds.
AP |
Kryptkeeper
Junior Member
Username: Kryptkeeper
Post Number: 20
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 8:12 pm: |
|
Okay so what I gather is this, I need to ground my antenna and my gear because I will be at both ends of the house also with the antenna at the north end and the radio and gear at the far south-east corner. Should I also install a AT-KW1 No Ground CB Antenna Tuner?
CEF#1003 / Kryptkeeper
|
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 16248
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 9:20 am: |
|
Kryptkeeper
Check your SWR first and if everything is grounded well you may find that your SWR is OK.
First I would suggest lowering your SWR as low as you can get by adjusting your antenna.
If your SWR is high then you can use the AT-KW1 No Ground CB Antenna Tuner to show your radio a safe SWR reading to operate with.
Remember: any antenna tuner does not actually lower your SWR but it does show your radio that you have an acceptable SWR to operate with.
Lon~Tech808
CEF#0808/HAM#001/CVC#0002
Tech808@copperelectronics.com
|
Lucky7
Junior Member
Username: Lucky7
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 11:36 am: |
|
I live in a old farm house with a dirt floor basement, it is not pooible for me to have my equipment on a exterior wall. Would it be possible to just run a ground rod into the basement floor (dirt) for my equipment ground? I have my antenna grounded outside but it is on the opposite side of the house from where my gear is. Thanks
Tomorrow will be yesterday two days from now!
|
Hotwire
Senior Member
Username: Hotwire
Post Number: 2670
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 12:49 pm: |
|
I think it would work just fine.
Kenny
CEF491
Reading the mail around Indianapolis Indiana!
|
Larryf
New member
Username: Larryf
Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2012
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2012 - 1:09 pm: |
|
At this point Iam thoroughly confused. I have a slighly different antenne question. I'm concerned with lightning strikes to my chimney mpounted Imax2000 antemnne. Everyone seems to differ on opinion. Please tell me what you think.
At the end of the day I unplug my radio gear and disconnect the antenna from the amp. Now I have a free antenna wire (coax) just hanging there. Should I ground the coax, ground the antenna center wire, ground both, or just let it hang.
I have a busbar to which all radio gear is connected and the busbar is then grounded ouside the house to an eight foot stake connected inside by # 8 covered braided wire. What will give me the best protection against lightning damage? |
Starface
Senior Member
Username: Starface
Post Number: 3174
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2012 - 2:01 am: |
|
check this out on the copper order page.
H00-00004 Polyphaser IS-B50HU-CO
[H00-00004] $64.99
Broadband dc Blocked Protector
(Lightning Arrestor)
For general radio use; surface or bulkhead mountable options. Special note: NOT for use where transmitter combining is performed.
Multi-strike capability
Low strike throughput energy
Flange mount and bulkhead mount options
Technical Specifications:
Max Power: HF 3kw, VHF 500w, UHF 250w
Insertion Loss: less than or equal to 0.1dB
Freq. Range: 1.5-400MHz
Mounting: Bulkhead
Protected Side Connector: UHF Female 50ohm
Unit Impedance: 50ohm
Voltage Standing Wave Ratio: 1.2 : 1 |
Charliebrown
Intermediate Member
Username: Charliebrown
Post Number: 270
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2012 - 10:09 pm: |
|
For my rf ground on the upper level I use the center wire of rg 213 connected to the radio and the other to the ground rod. I leave the shield close to the ground rod but not connected at either end. My reason is in hope that the shield will contain any rf that may be on the center wire. |
Tech237
Moderator
Username: Tech237
Post Number: 1639
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2012 - 9:10 am: |
|
Charliebrown - you might find better results if you connect the sheild at the ground rod only.
Tech237
N7AUS
God made me an athiest, who are you to question his wisdom?
|
