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Message |
    
Sinker
Intermediate Member
Username: Sinker
Post Number: 301
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 6:03 pm: | 
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Well I calmed down enough to start again going through the radio set up to see if I could find my problem.
Found a number of problems in-fact and believe I have found what caused most of them, at least according to the local CB Shop and that was LIGHTENING.
One of the items I hadn't checked was the lightening arrestor I installed at the feed point that connected to the #4 ground wire.
Anyway long story short they say I got hit by lightening but I thought my antenna would blow to pieces and coax would melt so I am not convinced of this.
Needless to say the Arrestor if Fried as is the connector on the Maco but other than that the antenna looks OK.
Coax looks to be fine but did not test that way according to them (local CB Shop).
Brought in the Polyphasers as well and they say that BOTH of them are bad as well ????
Guess hooking up both Polyphasers side by side to one ground bar was not the best idea.
Looks as though I will also have to pull all the coax out of the attic and walls and take down to have it checked as well to see if it is still good.
If nothing else, everything else in the house is fine and all the equipment seems to be OK although perhaps an issue with the TR 696-F SSB Base and of course the issue with the KLV.
Anyway, will be off the air for a bit as I need to save up for some more Coax and Polyphasers.
I don't know if I really got hit by lightening but if I did then I am NOT going to hook things back up without those polyphasers thats for sure as if I did get hit with lightening then the grounding advice and polyphaser advice from all of you saved my house and my electronics in it as well.
I will make a few changes on this next install.
Oh yeah when I was taking off the coax seal stuff (like playdough) there were like little pieces of glass in it. No idea where it came from.
Still don't think I got hit by lightening though, think I maybe had a short that did that damage. Whatever glad it happened there and not at my radio...
Tim
CEF-634 |
Cornbrown
Member
Username: Cornbrown
Post Number: 88
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 8:33 pm: |
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Looks like lightning Sinker. If you check your other thread I did say lightning might have struck when you were away. If you still have your antron 99, and old coax you can hook up the TR696 and see if it works.... More than likely the antenna, coax and KlV1000 might be cooked. Oh the glass in the Coax seal is a byproduct of the lightning cooking the silica in the coax seal.
Glad you found the problem...... It could have been worse. |
Wally38
Member
Username: Wally38
Post Number: 61
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 9:22 pm: |
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It may have not been a direct hit either. Lightning can still find it's way to your equipment by hitting other things nearby. That's how most people survive a lightning strike. They aren't actually hit directly.
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Road_warrior
Senior Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 1039
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 9:47 pm: |
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That looks and sounds like a lightning strike.
Metal antennas will sometimes pass the strike energy./ Fiberglass antenna may have blown to bits./ Just glad no-one got hurt or your
property damaged./ Was there a storm the day
your SWRS went nuts or any days not long before
that day?
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Sinker
Intermediate Member
Username: Sinker
Post Number: 301
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 10:11 pm: |
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I had just gotten back from Georgia that same morning. We did have storms while I was gone and that day but I did not hear any thunder at the time I noticed the spike.
I have three computers that were up and running while I was gone, also all on UPS systems and nothing happened to them, checked the system and net logs and nothing shows.
If it was lightening then I AM SOLD on the POLYPHASERS, the LIGHTENING ARRESTORS and the METHOD Tech833, Tech808 & Tech291 instructed me in grounding things.
Thank You Guys
Tim
CEF-634 |
Tech291
Moderator
Username: Tech291
Post Number: 319
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 10:12 pm: |
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the Maco v58 and v5000 are both dc grounded antennas so most of the energy could have been passed directly down the tower to ground.
I'm curious as to how your shop tested the PolyPhasers and coax.Most PolyPhasers have a replacable cartridge in them,check their website.
The Lightning Bug arrestor you have pictured are not bad for dissiapating static but I would NOT rely on them for lightning protection.
tech291
cef#291
kc8zpj
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Sinker
Intermediate Member
Username: Sinker
Post Number: 302
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 11:11 pm: |
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When I installed my tower the first 5 feet is underground with the first foot or so of that being into the earth then the top 4 feet is in concrete plus the tower has a braided ground strap to one of the 6 ground rods that are all tied together and the antenna has #4 wire going to a ground rod as well.
I am not sure how they tested the Polyphasers or the coax for that matter as they do not allow anyone into the back room. I hate to say it but I do not trust them to much as I think they have some poor business practices and are the only game in town except for Radio Shack. I got some new coax to run to the antenna and they folded the shield over the outside cover and screwed the connectors on - NO SOLDER and little shield wires sticking out to poke my fingers. It was 20 bucks that I will end up making jumpers out of as even I could do a better job than that. For all I know they didn't test anything but then I wasted even more money so I would like to think they did test the stuff somehow.
I would much prefer to buy a new cartridge than new PolyPhasers if it would save me some money.
Think if I put a new connector on the Maco V-5000 it would still work??? That would be GREAT.
Tim
CEF-634 |
Cornbrown
Member
Username: Cornbrown
Post Number: 89
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 4:39 am: |
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Sinker.... If you have a multimeter you can check the coax and the Polyphaser yourself...... You can buy a cheap one at radio shack.... We could walk you through it. To be honest I think the coax is a lost If the lightning did not create a short it definately cooked and overheated the center insulation. |
Sinker
Intermediate Member
Username: Sinker
Post Number: 302
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 8:10 am: |
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I have a multimeter and can check for shorts but do not know how to check it for anything else. |
Hollowpoint445
Advanced Member
Username: Hollowpoint445
Post Number: 952
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 9:34 pm: |
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Lightning is not only DC - it's a very broadbanded AC as well, which is why you can hear it on AM BCB, 27MHZ, FM BCB, everything in between, and higher in frequency too.
The fact that the antenna is DC grounded means nothing except that it can dissipate accumulated static - which is a good thing, but not anything important for lightning protection.
I agree that the Polyphaser devices should still be good. Write Polyphaser about how to test them. I would imagine it would involve the use of an RF signal generator. Some of their devices are DC blocked and some aren't, so testing with a multimeter isn't necessarily going to tell you anything. |
Hatchet
Member
Username: Hatchet
Post Number: 85
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 3:55 am: |
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I would say if you have problems with your base and amp the polyphasers did NOT do their job |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1118
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 9:33 am: |
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Hatchet- If his base and amp are not blackened and his house did not catch fire, then the Polyphasers DID do their job.
Testing polyphasers can be done with a capacitor meter. Measuring from center to center (each side of the Polyphaser), you should read about .01 yF capacitance. Then, using an ohm meter from center to ground, you should read 'open'. If you find this, then your Polyphasers are good. The shop may not know that a Polyphaser does not show continuity through it. LOTS of people make that mistake.
From the looks of your connector, it appears that there was also moisture inside it. I would say you did not receive a direct strike, but a proximity strike. Just as dangerous to your gear anyway. |
Chad
Advanced Member
Username: Chad
Post Number: 605
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 9:57 am: |
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I agree with 833, You may have gotten just one carbon trace from center to ground. Carbon is a conductor and will allow sufficient heat to build up when big power ia applied. This makes another arc, then another and then you see SWR thru the roof when power is applied because you are above the breakdown of the carbonized dielectric. Low power MAY be just fine!
Moisture is not out of the question either. I have seen coax connectors arc over from condensation and cause the same problems. You should see what tube sockets do when they carbon up 
Chad |
Kid_vicious
Advanced Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 929
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 3:20 am: |
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WHY DOES ANYONE USE THOSE CHEAP LIGHTENING ARRESTORS?!!!!!
has anyone on here even HEARD of these things doing any good? i bet not. they are a marketing ploy IMO.
tim, i seem to remember someone telling you when you first got on here that you should get rid of that lightening arrestor, have a good shop make your jumpers for you, and to stay far, far away from that CB shop. THEY ARE RIPPING YOU OFF!!!
how did we all miss the fact that you were planning on using this thing for your antenna installation? im sure that if one of us would have cought it, that we would have told you to screw your coax DIRECTLY to the antenna, and to run a wire from the base of the antenna down to the ground rod. in fact, im pretty sure that i told you to do that exact thing. (my memory is not the greatest)
i believe this connector to be the source of your problems. does anyone else on here push 600+ watts through one of these? i bet they're not rated for it.
IMO, at this point, decide whether you want the IMAX or if you like the MACO.
if you choose to keep the maco, (i would) grind off the SO-239 connector, bolt on a new one, and replace the wire with a heavier gauge one.
use an AMPHENOL connector for this, not a radio shak one.
you can test your coax, but im guessing you just want to get a new run. (i would)
you have to be careful or this hobby will eat you alive!
does anyone else on here think that maybe tim's SWR spike was that cheap lightning arrestor going POOF?!
hope you get back on the air soon,
matt |
Sinker
Intermediate Member
Username: Sinker
Post Number: 305
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 8:06 am: |
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I have the new connector for the antenna. I will pull it down and work on it.
Have to order up some new coax for my main runs - lets see 75' to polyphaser and then another 50' to feed point.
Also need to replace either the Polyphaser or the cartridge in it as well.
Made all new RG-8 jumpers with amphenol connectors - need three more to replace the radio shack jumpers as well but may just use.
I'll be back on the air but may not be till after the New Year as I still need to get a few things for the kids and wife, then we will head to Iowa after Christmas so the kids can see snow and their Grandma & Grandpa.
Come the first of the year I can start saving for new coax and polypashers etc. |
Hatchet
Member
Username: Hatchet
Post Number: 88
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 8:27 am: |
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I guess from the way everyone talked about them I thought the polyphasers were supposed to protect your equiptment. Sounds like they didnt do that. I cant see how they are worth what they cost? A good grounding system on your tower and radio room should produce the same results. Unplug your antennas when you get done talking and run a good quality surge protector. That will do more for your system than a Polyphayser it seems |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 8602
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 9:36 am: |
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Hatchet,
I guess you never read my post on receiving a DIRECT HIT or Tech833's Post above.
From Tech833's post above:
Hatchet- If his base and amp are not blackened and his house did not catch fire, then the Polyphasers DID do their job.
And from your post above you have NEVER used them or researched them.
When the PolyPhasers are INSTALLED CORRECTLY they DO WORK!
I took a DIRECT HIT and it blew the the IMAX into 1000 pieces melted the Coax and SAVED WELL OVER $5000.00 worth of our Radios and Equipment that were ALL connected to the IMAX thru our MFJ-1700B 6 in and 6 out Antenna switch when it was hit.
I personally have NEVER heard of ANYONE who has used them and had them installed Correctly ever losing a SINGLE piece of Equipment.
Maybe Tech833 has but I have NOT.
It is very MISLEADING, UNFAIR / and BIASED for anyone to bash a product unless they have Personally used that product.
Lon
Tech808
CEF808
N9OSN |
Sinker
Intermediate Member
Username: Sinker
Post Number: 306
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 12:23 pm: |
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Oh but they did protect my equipment.
You see I run three computers in my office plus two laptops for a total of 5 (2 of which are servers). The connector you see pictured above is fried and was in some area melted to the other fitting. The pieces of glass in the coax seal indicates some serious heat and lightening.
I have paid close attention to the grounding advice that I was given as my other house was hit by lightening 3 times (who says lightening doesn't strike the same place twice). In those hits I lost most electrical items in my house and had to have some re-wiring done as well. The insurance company was fair with me luckily.
I have three base stations hooked up a scanner and other lighted meters etc. I know I mentioned a possible problem with my KLV amp and my TR 696F-SSB Base but let me explain.
After the fact and while keyed up I noticed an SWR spike taking my system from 1.2:1 to over 3 that is when the KLV went out NOT during the strike. Even so the KLV still semi functions, the Pre-Amp works GREAT and everything else works until I key up, even then the big fan kicks on like it should but the rear fuse will blow and no signal will flow telling me that the fuse is doing it's job probably because of a bad tube from keying with a high SWR or so I have been told by many folks - it is in the shop now getting repaired.
The TR 696-SSB Base I am not even sure has a problem. I notice that I can hear the NOAA Weather stations (which is a function on this radio) but I can hear them when on AM and not turned to the weather selector. I hear it even more clearly when the RF Gain is turned all the way down as it takes out the CB Stations but allows the weather station. Could be a channel rejection thing or the fact that I do not have a real way to test it till I get my station back up and running - New Coax, Antenna connector and YES PolyPhasers or the cartridge for them.
I am sold on the Polyphasers and 60 or 70 bucks is worth not only my equipment's safety but my families as well. Nothing and I mean NOTHING in the house blew as a result of the strike. I even checked the server logs and although they did go to the UPS system a few times never went off-line at all.
I may run my system directly for Sunday's net if I can but it will then be unhooked as I WILL NOT have it HOOKED UP till I have PolyPhasers IN-LINE AGAIN.
Hey just my 2 cents and may not be worth much but I am a believer in the Polyphasers.
I'd say and bet the KLV problem was caused by keying with a high SWR (NOT ON PURPOSE OF COURSE) and am hoping it is only one bad tube. The Texas Ranger 696F-SSB Base station, who knows, maybe nothing is wrong or maybe there is. Again if so I can not say it was from a lightening strike but more likely from keying the KLV with the high SWR as I am sure I ended up with A LOT of rejection that went back into the radio (if I understand how that works correctly).
Point is I am a BELIEVER in Polyphasers...
Sorry if I mislead you earlier.
Tim
CEF-634 |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 8603
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 1:38 pm: |
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Sinker,
Good Deal, 
And yet another convinced PolyPhaser Owner who has been hit and still has his radio equipment in working condition is added to the growing list of list of satisfied owners / users of Polyphasers. 
Lon
Tech808
CEF808
N9OSN |
Road_warrior
Senior Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 1048
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 8:38 pm: |
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Do a search on lightning and you will be
amazed at some of the facts. Polyphasers
are well worth using and if correctly installed
you can not get any better protection.
This product is recommended by alot of people
and has saved lots of $$$ in repairs and replacing
equipment! Not to mention personal safety of ones family and property!
JIM/PA/CEF 375 |
Cornbrown
Member
Username: Cornbrown
Post Number: 90
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 6:20 am: |
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Polyphasers are indeed good.... I work for the Rail Road and we use polyphasers to protect the radios on the High Speed Trains. |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1122
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 11:52 am: |
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Don't pop a blood vessel Lon. Do you remember all the flack I took when I first mentioned Polyphasers to this group years ago? Nobody had ever heard of them, and everybody jumped all over me saying I was nuts and giving bad advice that will ultimately lead to the loss of human lives. I had several phone conversations with 'Old Man Copper' about Polyphasers before he would even consider trying one out for himself. A couple more lengthy phone calls later, and Copper was carrying them for their customers.
I think it wasn't until after you took that direct hit to our amazing survivor Imax that people started to believe. Yes, Polyphasers work. No, they are not expensive or just for the professionals. The proof is in the homes, equipment, and lives saved everywhere.
Some people will never climb on board the train of knowledge when they are stuck in the hopeless world of CB shop lies and on-air CB folklore. Sticking the end of your coax in a glass jar WILL start a house fire and throw shards of hot glass everywhere (your eyes too). That is, IF you are home every time a storm approaches and remember to unplug your coax, etc.
I have said it countless times..... How do you think all the professional mountain-top radio systems stay on the air lightning storm after lightning storm? Do you think techs go to the mountain every time there is going to be a storm and put all the coaxes in glass jars? Do you think it would be acceptable to all the radio users to be off the air during every storm? Do you think that equipment keeps working year after year because those mountain-top towers don't get lightning hits?
Of course not! The professionals stay on the air thanks to Polyphasers. It's a no-brainer. Even someone hopelessly buried in CB folklore can understand that fact. Or, maybe not... |
Wildrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Wildrat
Post Number: 450
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 1:23 pm: |
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I was in a local electronics parts store talking to another customer who was a ham.I asked him about polyphasers and started telling me they were just snake oil. Well I had already read what 833 said about them,especially the part about commercial stations staying on air during storms. Then having also gone out to polyphaser corps website and reading up on polyphasers and their other products I knew that this ham was blowing smoke and did not have a clue. I was polite and tried to explain polyphasers to him, and having him tell several times that lightning goes where it wants to, I just said your right knowing that it will be him replacing more high dollar equipment than me. I beleive that lightning goes where it wants to go also but that it can be guided to a better path of "enlightningment"
WildRat |
Hollowpoint445
Advanced Member
Username: Hollowpoint445
Post Number: 953
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 6:12 pm: |
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I don't know why it suprises any of you that some folks don't believe that these coaxial protection devices work. There are still some folks who believe that there is no way to protect a station from lightning strikes, and some believe that a single ground rod connected to the tower or pole with 10 gauge wire is all that is necessary.
I've read a fair amount about lightning protection over the years, and some of the best information I ever read was a series of articles about grounding and lightning protection in 73 Amateur Radio Today by one of the guys at Polyphaser. They know their stuff - period!
Anyone who disagrees with them had better have a good reason and some serious practical experience to the contrary for me to even consider their argument.
To take it to another level, I read an article written by a steeplejack who claims that in his considerable experience with very tall towers in the mid-west, extensive grounding systems combined with static dissipators can actually decrease the chance that a tower will be struck by lightning through reducing the ionization near the tower. I realize it's anecdotal, but the principle seems sound. |
Wildrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Wildrat
Post Number: 454
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 6:40 pm: |
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They use static dischargers on the trailing edge of aircraft.
WildRat |
Wildrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Wildrat
Post Number: 456
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 7:44 pm: |
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Hey Sinker,
I'm sure you know this from others here already, when you get done soldering your connectors clean the contact surfaces. Use some Acetone and wipe the flux off, or like I do take a piece of fine sandpaper and clean it up, I use a piece of 2000 grit because thats what was handy.
WildRat |
