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Akzo90
New member
Username: Akzo90
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 9:28 pm: | 
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I finally got my Lightning 4+ finished and would like for those who have some experience with this antenna to look at my completed antenna. I was wondering if anyone else had the same bowing of the spreaders and the sagging of the boom. I made sure when assembling the antenna that I did not get the spreaders too tight. But when the antenna was completely assembled the boom has a significant bow in it causing the reflector spreader rods to bow. The driven element spreader rods are bowing because of the weight of the feed wire. I may be over reacting but I would like for everyone to look at the pictures and give me your opinions.
Link to Lightning4+ .
Thanks,
ED
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Dcrusty
Junior Member
Username: Dcrusty
Post Number: 12
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 1:33 pm: |
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Hi Ed, Looks about right. Have put up two of these for people and they all look the same. I have a brand new one in the box in my basement that I bought a couple of years ago and I probably will not put it up.Very good idea, just very poor hardware and instructions for the money that these cost. Hope you have good luck with yours. Dcrusty |
Akzo90
New member
Username: Akzo90
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 7:01 pm: |
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Yea, I have to agree on the hardware. I believe this fellow could come up with a little better material for this amount money. I think these antennas are going for over $400. I only paid only $225 on Ebay for mine and it was still in the box brand new. Now that I have it together I think that was too much. I plan on putting up a 100’ tower and I’m not sure if I will use this antenna. I believe Tech808 has had to remove his S. E. antenna because of failure. Too much trouble for failure at 100'.
Thanks for the reply,
ED
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Marconi
Intermediate Member
Username: Marconi
Post Number: 443
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 12:18 pm: |
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Dcrusty, since Akzo90 has not yet installed his beam ask him if he can get you the exact measurements for the two wires on the driven element.
I am also curious if the wires for the loops come with wire nut hardware already attached to the ends?
Does anyone know why the driven element comes in two pieces? |
Akzo90
New member
Username: Akzo90
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 8:38 pm: |
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Hello Marconi,
I believe I have spoke to you before about this same antenna on another forum. Well quite some time has passed since then and I have just now finished the antenna. I have had too much going on at work to really get to do anything with it.
Anyway the driven element measures 9’2” on one side and I assume that the other sides are the same. If you are talking about the feed wires I can get that measurement too. The manufacturer soldered small ring terminals on the ends of the driven element wire. Not sure why the driven element is in separate sections.
ED
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Marconi
Intermediate Member
Username: Marconi
Post Number: 444
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 9:16 pm: |
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Thanks Ed, how long is the short wire? Whatever that one is the other three have to work out to be the same. I believe symmerty of this antenna is important. Since you have it down, maybe it would be a good thing to check thru-out.
Anybody have an idea why they make this short wire a seperate part of the driven element?
Dcrusty, since the ring terminals are soldered to the wires, it probably is not a good idea to re-stretch the wires as you noted. |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 7678
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 8:26 am: |
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Akzo90,
Yes you are correct as I have had MAJOR PROBLEMS.
I did have the Factory installed eyelets on the Driven element break 5 or 6 times in the last 6 months which is a MAJOR PAIN to call someone and wait until they have the time to come over and climb the tower and keep fixing it over and over again.
After the antenna was on the ground I found that every single eyelet on every wire was in just as bad of shape and ready to break.
Recently Dennis / Tech291 drove over from Ohio to remove the SE Quads and replace them with the  Maco M-103C-HV 3 Element Dual Maxi beams.
I was TOTALLY SHOCKED as was Tech291 to see the Major Damage on the Main Boom and Cross Tubes that went thru the Boom for the spreaders after less than 2-1/2 years in the air.
The holes in the main boom where the spreader sleeves went thru the boom had Wallowed out from wind to 3 times the size and were almost Cut completely in half from wind vibration.
Also ALL of the hardware had completely rusted so it would have been Impossable to even try and re-adjust anything.
This antenna would NOT have lasted another 3 months until the Boom would have completely broken in half or the element tubes running thru the boom would have been cut in half.
I thought I would disassemble everything and save it for possible future use but found that was useless as there was nothing worth saving. 
Note!
I did save the Boom and Spreader Tubes to take pictures of for future reference and to send to SE.
Every single clamp, bolt, nut, connector, was completely rusted and either broke or had to be cut off trying to take it apart.
The Boom is 100% completely useless, as are the spreader tubes that go thru the boom.
I was very pleased with the performance of it Until things started BREAKING from rusted / poor quality components in less than 2 years of use.
I personally would NOT Recommend this antenna to anyone! Unless they only want a 2 year antenna and at the price I paid for it I am VERY UNHAPPY with the Quality of the Parts / Components after less than 2 years of use before things started breaking.
Maybe it would last longer in a state like CA.
But in the Mid-West it just cannot take the weather, wind and conditions.
It was VERY Frustrating to have NO BEAMS and have to call CEF #156 / Redman and CEF #159 / Homeboy every 2 or 3 months to come over and pay them to climb the tower and keep fixing the darn thing.
Brian / CEF #156 / Redman even had to come over During the CEF Mid-West Gathering climb the tower and FIX THEM (AGAIN) so I could talk to the people driving back home after the event.
I will NEVER OWN another set of Beams that have a Single Driver Element that controls BOTH the Vert and Horz or another set of SE Beams.
When it has problems you have problems and are NOT ON THE AIR!
Sorry but in the last year I have had more problems with them than any other set of beams I have owned in the last 30+ years.
The Maco Beams assembly took less than 1/4th the time to assemble and was 100% easier to set the SWR on BOTH sides. 
And with the Element Kit I invented for the MACO Beams I have NO WORRIES about having any problems with any of the elements like I did with the SE Antenna from Ice or Snow or Wind.
As soon as Moderator136 gets his Maco 5 element beams on the ground I will be driving over to Iowa to install a kit on his so we can both test it thru this winter with the Snow, Ice and Wind.
Just my Personal Thoughts & Experience with the SE Quads.
Lon
Tech808
CEF808
N9OSN
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Marconi
Intermediate Member
Username: Marconi
Post Number: 445
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 5:02 pm: |
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808, I understand your fustrations, but what do you find wrong about the single element providing both vertical and horizontal polorities?
I am surprised you did not see the shortcomings when you first opened up the box and saw the junk inside. I could not tell any problems from the pictures on the Internet, but when I saw and read the docs, I knew there was much to be desired with the kit. In particular the way the spreader supports attached to the boom, a problem looking to happen soon in the windy skies high above the ground, to say nothing of the affects of winter ice and snow on a light weight wire quad. Your right, it needs to be in a mild climite area.
Looks to me like the idea (not the kit) is very simple, ingenious, and effective at doing what it is supposed to. The worth of this SE kit is entirely another thing.
Just my opinion thru a similar period of experience with beam antennas. |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 7687
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 5:57 pm: |
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Marconi,
Sorry but I did not see any junk inside when I opened the box.
The main problem with a single driven element is when you have problems with one side you have problems with Both sides.
On the Maco Beams if the Vert element goes out I will still have the Horz or vice versa as the are 2 completely different set of Elements and Gamma Matches and are NOT connected by anything except the main boom.
Lon
Tech808
CEF808
N9OSN
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Wrk3
Member
Username: Wrk3
Post Number: 74
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 6:45 pm: |
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Akzo90, The pics you sent look just fine, I always recieved good radio checks. Yes my eyelets fell off to. I hate two knock another mans product or manufacturing, but a little more thought could've gone into this antenna. please do not get me wrong, you will be a big dog with this antenna, but staying in the air was my problem. lol 'littleman' |
Marconi
Intermediate Member
Username: Marconi
Post Number: 447
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 8:38 pm: |
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808, I think you know what I was getting at when I spoke about the junk in the box.
I sure would not be happy either. I would take some good pictures and a nice clear letter explaing how I felt and who was going to hear about it if I got no reasonable and timely response.
I don't recall how long they have been around, but I'll bet they are hearing a lot of stories regarding the same thing about now. |
Akzo90
New member
Username: Akzo90
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 10:13 pm: |
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Well thanks for all the input on this antenna. I believe I have made my mind up and I’m just going to buy a Maco Shooting Star. I have the Wilson version of the Shooting Star at my old house. It is up around 85’ and has been up since 94. It still has the same swr it started out with and has been through several ice and windstorms with no trouble. Maybe someone would like to buy this Lightning4+.
ED
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Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 7691
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 10:17 pm: |
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Not Me! 
Lon
Tech808
CEF808
N9OSN 
Sorry Ed I just could not help myself. |
Akzo90
New member
Username: Akzo90
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 11:01 pm: |
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Aluminum prices are pretty good around here. I think I can get .43 a pound for it. That will be a start on the Shooting Star.
ED
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Mikefromms
Advanced Member
Username: Mikefromms
Post Number: 795
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 1:26 pm: |
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Tech808, the parts rusted on the Thunder 8xb as well and the thing has become almost impossible to retune. A friend of mine who earned this antenna as partial payment for his labor a year or so back has offered it back for free as he cannot use it. One side will not even tune to a 2.0 swr. Maybe it got struck by lightning or something, but it didn't workout. I know putting it in the pinetree shortened it's life.
Mikefromms |
Marconi
Intermediate Member
Username: Marconi
Post Number: 450
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 3:13 am: |
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Ed, a while back you gave us a measurment for one side of your SE L-4+ beam at 9'2". Thanks.
Later I emailed you the following, but maybe you missed it.
Ed, since you have your beam so conveniently near the ground I would appreciate it very much if you would please measure for me the following lengths.
1. the length of the short piece of the driven element that should be between the two feeder wires attached to the driven element wire loop. I think you have already told me that a single side is 110" long and that the other sides should be the same. I need to know this particular side measurement, specifically from the center of each eyelet to eyelet. The other sides should all be the same is true, but being exact there does not matter quite so much.
2. the total length of either feeder wire, including the brass rod, from the open end where you bent the rod to retain it in the plastic stand-off, all the way to the point where it attaches to the wire loop.
3. If you have successfully made a tune on either or both of the elements, give me a measurement from the center conductor's tap point on the rod, back to the open end of the rod in the stand-off. If both sides show a good tune then please provide this for both elements as they are likely different. If you have not tuned or have not been successful at either or both elements, then forget this measurement.
Thanks and good luck. |
Akzo90
New member
Username: Akzo90
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 8:25 am: |
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Hello Marconi, I am sorry I missed your email. My wife and I have seven computers that we can check email on and one of us probably didn’t see it. The measurement I gave was on the short wire of the driven element. My wife helped me measure the wire on the antenna. We tried to pull all the slack out of it to get a correct measurement. I think taking the element off would be better. I’ll do that today when I get off work. And also get the other measurements as well. I will take some closer pictures of the matching system and post them in my photo album. I have not put any RF into the antenna.
ED
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Marconi
Intermediate Member
Username: Marconi
Post Number: 451
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 9:57 am: |
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Ed, don't take your beam apart. Since you measured the short side of the driven element already, then that will work for the overall wire length of the driven element at 440". Thanks!
That short wire is the necessary control side for the loop anyway. It had to be the true resonant 1/4 wavelength of the loop anyway. That is why they made the driven element in two pieces, so they could control the important spacing between the two feed points regardless of what the other three sides did as a result of the wind or errors in measurement.
The other important info I need is the total overall length of the feeder wire that runs out to the loop, tip to tip. This one has the brass stub wire attached where the coax taps in as you tune.
I am trying to look at this thing from the electrical point of view, since I don't have one to work with. I think I know what the total overall feeder length will likely be, but am not sure. Your measurement will help confirm my idea.
The other important measurement I also need is the exact tuned length of a tuner, measured from a tuner that has been correctly tuned to the loop. This measurement is from the tap point where the coax actually taps into the brass rod, out to the point where the tuner wire, taps into the loop. I would call this the resonant length of a tuned feeder.
Lon since Ed has not tuned his beam yet and if you still have that part of your beam handy, maybe you could give me these two feeder measurements.
Thanks,
Eddie
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Akzo90
New member
Username: Akzo90
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 9:48 pm: |
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Eddie, I didn’t read your post before I started taking my antenna apart. I was going to do it anyway because some of the screws have already started rusting. I have measured the driven element again just to make sure and have come up with the same length. It was a lot easier to measure with it stretched across a board. The feed wire measures 130” from the center of the eyelet to the end of the wire and the brass stubs are 18” from the edge of the bend to the center of the eyelet. I have some close-up pictures posted in my photo album now if you are interested in seeing the feed system and eyelets up close. I also took pictures of the measurements. Let me know if you need any other measurements or pictures.
I have not completely given up on this antenna. I believe I have come up with a way to secure the eyelets and the spreader tubes. I work in a bodyshop and we have this thick-bodied epoxy that is used to glue on door-skins, quarter-panels, roofs and other car parts that we used to weld on. I have been told that this epoxy is the same substance that is used to make rotor-blades on helicopters (just to give you some idea of it’s strength). I have got find out first if it is conductive, which I do not think it is. Well...just a plan to save the 4+ from the recycle center.
ED
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Marconi
Intermediate Member
Username: Marconi
Post Number: 453
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 12:39 am: |
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Thanks Ed, for the work.
Your feeder at 148” is a little shorter than my estimate of 167”, but this is very helpful. I am estimating that one might find a resonant tap point for the coax to the feeder rods somewhere around 11.5” from the open end of the tuner, but that will vary some with each setup I suppose. I am just trying to get close with this model.
Hey Lon I was hoping that you might fill us in on that one. If you could confirm this for me it would give me a little confidence that my theoretical model is pretty close to correct in all its assumptions.
Ed your idea of using epoxy body filler may work to add support to the spreader supports around the boom, but you have to be concerned about the addition of weight also. Not sure how it would hold up in the weather either, but it is a good thought. Something there has to be done or the wind alone will likely take this one down after a while. It would be better it they were all tac-welded into place and the bolts removed. It would prevent taking it apart later, but who cares as long as it holds up a few more years.
I don't believe you need to worry about the conductivity as far as the ground is concerned on this antenna.
A simple solution to hold the spreaders in the supports would be to use all stainless hose clamps on the spreaders and let them ride against the support under the tension of the wire. They are not going anywhere, unless the wire breaks. Better yet, it would be better to slot the supports and use hose clamps to hold the spreaders in place. This way you don't have little screws in there chewing up the spreader tubes and getting loose or wallowing out the little holes because they were put in at a slant.
Of course replace all hardware with all SS, including the eyelets. Maybe a good reinforced shrink-wrap could be added to the ends of these wires that would add support for the eyelets. Or use silver coated steel wire that is longer and wrap the wire back on itself and solder when properly setup.
Thanks for the help.
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Marconi
Intermediate Member
Username: Marconi
Post Number: 455
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 1:51 pm: |
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Ed, during all this discussion, I forgot to speak to your first question about spreader bowing.
The idea here is to tension enough to hold the wires and feeders tought, but not so tight that you see bowing or very much bowing. Now that all sounds good, but it is difficult to achieve.
If the weather is colder when installing the wire then I would chance a little tighter tension and if it was hot, then maybe I would just barely tension. Whatever you do with tension on a quad, it is probably going to change some as the temp changes.
BTW, I looked at the picture section and I don't see your handle there. I will look in your profile area for a link. |
Marconi
Intermediate Member
Username: Marconi
Post Number: 456
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 3:28 pm: |
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Ed, I found your link to pictures in you original post. The additional pictures are good. All that I could say here would just be being picky, but regarding the wire attachments at the eyelets. I would attach them all to the inside bolt holes provided. If you will look at your pictures 1 and 2, contrasted to 9 and 10, you will note that the attachment points for the shrink wrapped parts of the loops are very close to the inside bolt holes. Your connections for the driven element eyelets, on-the-other-hand, are at the outside bolt holes. This probably won't hurt much, but it will change the angles a bit. I believe symmetry in any beam is important, even the bowing of the boom changes the angles a bit. So, if you can fix it easily, why not do it.
I would for sure replace all the hardware with all ss stuff. Those hose clamp brackets holding the insulators are really junk. Some good all ss hose clamps would be better. I have to assume that all the bolts, nuts, and washers are not suitable for exposure to weather either.
After seeing your close up of the f'glass spreaders I was really surprised that Lon's antenna was not destroyed as soon as the ice melted. Seeing as they did snap back however, I believe they are very sturdy if used under normal circumstances. I would also do something different to hold the spreaders in place and get rid of those little screws holding them.
I would check and make sure all element wires are the right color for the element and that all the f'glass poles are all in the right elements. I would even check the measurements for each element from the boom out to the tip on each spreader as a check for symmetry.
If you leave about three feet of mast sticking out of the top of the boom to mast plate you could make a simple harness to take the bow out of the boom and it would not affect the way the beam works. If you need a tip or two on this let me know.
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Akzo90
Junior Member
Username: Akzo90
Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 11:17 pm: |
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Hey Eddie, thanks for the tips. I carefully extended the glass rods and they are within a 16th of an inch. This took quite some time, because after extending each of the rods I placed the individual quad elements in the air to check for the bowing. I figure that this would be important to keep all the elements in line, even though the instruction do not stress this.
I am leaning towards the idea of welding the spreader tubes to the boom with either my mig or I have some of those miracle welding rods that weld almost anything especially aluminum. I ‘m not sure if you are familiar with these or not. We had a fellow come by our shop one day selling these. He welded a couple of coke cans together and seems to hold great.
I have been looking for a mast for the antenna, but have not found anyone locally that handles galvanized pipe this heavy. On my Shooting Star at my old house I have a piece of 1-3/4” galvanized schedule 80 pipe. It is very heavy but has stood the test of time. The instruction says that the 4+ will only accept up to 1-3/4”. I am not sure if that is o.d. or i.d. But as for pipe 1-1/4” pipe will be as close as I can get to 1-3/4”, which will be around 1.66”. Anyway I would like to get the bow out of the boom and maybe you also have some idea for locating a mast.
Thanks for your help,
ED
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Marconi
Intermediate Member
Username: Marconi
Post Number: 458
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 12:02 pm: |
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I have no clue to location of a good mast, but I think it needs to be strong and as light as possible. I use heavy wall cast aluminum mast pipe for mine and it has held up very well. However I believe it is a little bigger than 1.75". If you are going on a tower and are using a thrust bearing, the weight is not as big of an issue. BTW, I use old moonraker booms and they bend a little also.
On guying the mast. I use stainless S-hooks and wire or some other non-stretch and non-conductive material if you worry about that issue. I include one of those little screw type line tightening devices in the line also. Just hang two S-hooks in the end of the mast and one each in the ends of the boom, and tighten up the little screw devices till it looks good and level. If the ends curl up and it doesn't look right then move the S-hooks in from the ends a couple of feet and attach them using an all stainless hose clamps. You may have to bend the S-hooks a little in order to fit good.
The next thing is to figure out how to keep the wire eyelets from failing.
Have you tried to tune your beam at all yet? I guess Archie still has his in the air and is busy at work or the weather is still bad. I am anxious to see how his re-tuning effort goes.
I am sending you and email with some additional thoughts also.
Good luck,
Eddie
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Marconi
Intermediate Member
Username: Marconi
Post Number: 480
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 4:41 pm: |
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Hey Ed, thanks for working with me regarding your beam. Even though my tuning idea was not correct, I still believe the feeders can and do react to each other if they are not both tuned properly and resonant with the loop.
Give us and update on your progress.
Eddie
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Lilbump
New member
Username: Lilbump
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 9:36 pm: |
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Hello Gentleman
I own a SE quad and love it I want to share a couple of improvements that I have done to my SE lighting 4+
After I broke or either stretched numerous wires I replaced all my element with soild 14awg copperweld hopefully this will stand up better in the Northeastern winters.
The main reason the drive element is in two pieces is to provide two feedpoint connection this is also a weak point of this beam. whenever I broke a wire it was 95% of the time it was the drive element luckly the drive element sits close enogh to the tower neck I could replace this element without bring the beam down. well to further look at the failure the wire never broke but the lug attatched to wire broke none the less it needed to corrected. Well after I replaced the elements with solid 14awg copperweld I still ahd the fear of the lug breaking so I came up with a tap system. My drive element is now one solid piece of copperweld tapped at the proper locations for flat and vertical operation. I used a hex pc board connector well thats what is looks like to me Just found one thats much bigger. I drilled a hole thru this and passed the copperweld thru the hole and then used a 4/40 screw on the front and back to secure the flexable feed wire from the back and one screw on the front to secure the copperweld. I just did this summer not sure how its going to hold up but I had to get rid of those wire lugs that rust when you spit on them.
Also Found that the most important thing with this antenna is the drive element length. If for some reason only one portion of the element is not the right length then what happen is one feedpoint is effected by the other because you a have basically placed the other coax in the rf field of the other one. This will lead to major SWR problems the best way to check this. Check your swr then disconnect the other coax if your resonsant point changes by alot then your drive element length has been altered. I read in another post that while keying one polarity wattage was coming thru the other coax thats a sure sign that the other feedline is not tapped at the proper location. another point to look at in a perfect world if one coax is keyed there should be no Rf at the other feedpoint. Lets look at this in perfect world. We are resonant at 27.205 mhz what will happen if you run this test let say at 27.405 mhz The frequency has changed but the actual wire length and tap point have not; you will see wattage on the opposing feedpoint. This is one of the downfalls for using a single element for two different polarities.
One other point I'm going to make because I'm getting tired of typing. is the way the Se lighting 4+ lays out the drive element is really close to the tower for that simple reason try to get the vertical feedpoint well above your tower neck. That was one of my major problems. I moved my vertical feedpoint to the 12:00 position vice the 6:00 postion this helped alot but it's still not perfect. If I mount my beam in a box configration both feedpoints are perfect. but as soon as I bring the vertical back in line with the tower neck my resonant point changes. well thats enough for now I look forward to talking with you gentleman in the near future I will post pics of my tap system for my drive element. maybe one of you gentleman can improve on my intial design |
Road_warrior
Advanced Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 910
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 9:59 pm: |
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Sounds like your on the right track lilbump.
Let us know how your beam makes out through
the winter months. And how your improvements
held up... Thanks
JIM/PA/CEF 375 |
