| Author |
Message |
    
Sinker
Junior Member
Username: Sinker
Post Number: 46
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 7:33 pm: | 
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As you probably know by now I am getting ready to hookup my station - Well when it all gets here.
I have ordered the Texas Ranger 696F Base unit with a Super Star DM-452, a three face Workman P5000 Watt Meter and a Top One Antenna. I will be using LMR-400 coax as well, plus will keep the existing items I have now.
I have also ordered the Polyphasers, ground rods, ground straps, ground wires ground bars etc., etc. so I can hook things up similar to the way shown in the thread RADIO EQUIPMENT & GROUNDING
Reading through that thread there seems to be a need to have a SINGLE POINT GROUND to include the houses electrical system. Perhaps someone could enlighten me how this works as I am afraid I can not do this.
I will have two antenna locations about 40 yards apart from one another and each will have its own ground rod along with another ground rod outside my office (which is about 30 yards from both antennas) for the grounding of all my equipment. I can not connect these three ground rods in anyway that I can think of. So is this going to be a major issue???
On the installation of the Polyphasers: Should they be by the Antenna Ground Rod (Coax from antenna to polyphaser then up through the attic down the wall and into my office) or should they be in the office (coax from antenna to polyphaser then jumper to radio), well I understand what I am saying heheehe. If using polyphasers do I still need to use a lightening arrestor as well???
I will use Terminal lugs to attach the ground wire from the equipment to the ground terminal which will have a ground strap ran out to the ground rod outside the office.
So I am looking at three separate ground points – 4 including the houses electrical – Is this bad and if so why???
Oh, and what is the BEST way to ground an antenna???
My Head Hurts!!! |
Road_warrior
Advanced Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 822
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 8:06 pm: |
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Tech 833 knows all about those polyphasers
and proper grounding, i'm sure if he sees
this thread he will answer your questions.
I'm clueless on them...LOL... I will have to
study up on them.
Sounds like your getting some nice equipment.
It should work good for you. Good Luck!
P.S. I had a headache from your last thread.LOL
Still recovering.
JIm/CEF 375 /
CENTRAL PA
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Sinker
Junior Member
Username: Sinker
Post Number: 46
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 9:04 pm: |
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Road warrior this headache is a carry over from that thread. Don't tell anyone but I am clueless and major confused about now.
Heck even if it all came with instructions I probably wouldn't read them till I had everything messed up. Like normal...
My apologies to all who had to endure my last few threads - and perhaps this one as well.
Tim
CEF-634 |
Kid_vicious
Advanced Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 587
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 9:50 pm: |
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DONT PANIC!!! just a little joke.
you're gonna be fine tim; you will have a ground rod at the antenna's base with the braid running down from the antenna.
you will have your station equip. grounded outside the shack.
dont ground your scanner to the rest of your radio equip. its not going to make a difference and could cause you some trouble. the scanner will work fine if its just plugged into the wall and the coax connected to it.
the big deal about connecting all your ground rods together is that if lightning strikes the power pole or cable inlet, your new grounds will look much more appetizing to the lightning. the solution to this, if you cant connect all the ground rods is to pound a brand new 8 foot ground rod into the ground right outside the electrical box for your house and connect it to the ground wire for the AC house wiring at the box.
you should mount the polyphaser on the grounding strip at the back of your station desk. |
Road_warrior
Advanced Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 824
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 11:20 pm: |
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Sinker: LOL...I was only joking. I
had a headache trying to keep up with
all the posts and to what was going on...LOL
No problem... |
Sinker
Junior Member
Username: Sinker
Post Number: 49
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 9:30 am: |
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OK if the polyphasers are supposed to be inside by the radio I still want to get them about three feet from the ground rod correct???
Will have to modify my plan a bit and get some longer jumper cables as well. |
Truckerdon
Junior Member
Username: Truckerdon
Post Number: 35
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 9:16 pm: |
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Looking forward to the day of hearing your unit on the airways in Northern Ontario and Canada
Don CEF 336
Over the Road Trucker |
Kid_vicious
Advanced Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 591
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 10:14 pm: |
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sinker, it has been brought to my attention that the polyphaser does not have to be mounted at the bus bar inside the shack.
lon has some great photos of his station grounding system, and i'm sure you'll be fine if you copy what he did. |
Sinker
Member
Username: Sinker
Post Number: 67
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 9:06 am: |
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Truckerdon If I make that trip I will be very happy.
Kid vicious Thanks, I am actually kind of excited about setting up this new station. Hope you received my e-mail so you can send me those pics of what you did with the Top One as it sounds like you installed it perfectly.
Boy if I just had some money I could be dangerous. OK I am already dangerous but I could then be dangerous in a GOOD WAY. |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1059
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 1:34 pm: |
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Hi Sinker.
If you are able to run coaxes from your antennas to your shack, then you can surely run a ground wire from each of them to your shack too.
What you want is for each antenna to have its own ground rod, and then for your station to have its own ground rod, and all equipment grounded to that common point. THEN, you want all the grounds tied together.
Each and every piece of radio gear in your shack should have a ground wire attached to it and then to a common point (buss bar) behind the gear. Then, use a heavy copper wire to connect the buss bar to the station ground rod outside the shack.
The Polyphasers should be as close to the station ground rod as possible, and located right where your coaxes enter the house or shack. |
Road_warrior
Advanced Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 845
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 7:40 pm: |
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Tech 833,
Does the outside antenna/or tower ground-rod/s
get tied in with the ground-rod used for
all the equipment??? Or do they stay separate?
JIM/ CEF 375 |
Airplane1
Advanced Member
Username: Airplane1
Post Number: 567
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 7:03 am: |
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Thats all grounds for equipment and antennas connected to there own rod and then all them rods connected by copper wire to the house electrical ground rod.Correct? |
1861
Intermediate Member
Username: 1861
Post Number: 330
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 9:03 am: |
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I ALLWAYS HEARD NOT TO GROUND YOUR EQUIPMENT INTO YOUR ANTENNA GROUND . GUESS I BEEN HEARING IT WRONG ? |
Sinker
Member
Username: Sinker
Post Number: 77
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 10:26 am: |
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I am going to have to put up a diagram of things as my set up I guess is unconventional. I have coax from two antennas that enter the attic at two separate locations and then run about 50 feet into my office. I have ground rods at each antenna location and another outside my office. I now have ground rods around my house but not connected to one another. The only way to do this is to run ground wires from each ground rod and have them meet up in the attic as well I guess.
I am a bit disheartened as I am stuck with the locations of the antenna's one of which is as far away from the radio room (my office) as possible. So an ideal set up I do not have. I did get all the stuff to run a new electrical line into the office that will be dedicated for just the radio equipment and will have its own circuit and dedicated ground as well. I will run everything and then have the electrician hook it into the circuit panel as I am not messing with that.
Tried to shoot Tech833 an email and pm but email is hidden and pm's are not accepted as I wanted to run this by him.
I have the new base station in a box in the office along with the meter. The Top One antenna is here but trying to figure out the ground for a tripod (do I just use one ground or one for each of the three legs - I don't know) Been doing google searches for antenna grounding and lightening and am so confused it's not funny. Everybody says something a bit different and there is no IDIOT pictures for me to follow. I was going to use the ground strap as they say it handles the dispersion better but then was told not to run it from the antenna to the ground plus it is more expensive than the LMR-400 I am getting in per foot.
You guys probably think I am slow and guess I am but I really want to get this right as I want the best performance on the budget I have yet do not want to burn the house down or blow up everything in it because I put a lightening rod on top of my house the wrong way. Needless to say my wife would KILL ME...
May be a month or more before I even get to use that new Base Station but it sure looks nice and when it comes on the air it should be on a properly set up system somewhat protected from lightening and not causing any interference anywhere. Then this will just leave the making a CEF Contact goal and then maybe some new goodies - the KLV, an S-9 etc. but I want to finish the studying and get my Lic. first.
Oh yeah and I have NO IDEA where the houses electrical ground is. Saw another ground rod but looks like only the phone is hooked to it. |
Road_warrior
Advanced Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 846
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 10:39 am: |
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Got me Roger...
Right now i have (3) #6 copper wires coming
off each leg of my tower, each to there own
ground-rod.
My equipment wire is short and goes to a
separate ground rod outside window.
I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT IF ALL THESE GROUNDRODS
GET TIED TOGETHER TO EACH OTHER OR DO THEY REMAIN THE WAY I HAVE IT???
As for the house electric ground. I have no ground-rod. What somebody did here was they
ran a ground-wire from electric box to a water pipe. TV cable is also connected to same ground-wire and cold water pipe. Phone ground is hooked to a different cold water pipe. And my Tower/Antenna is on opposite side of house.
Not sure what to do???? |
Tech833
Member
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 69
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 10:59 am: |
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I quote from my post above- "...you want all the grounds tied together."
I cannot be any more clear.
If someone has told you different, then they are wrong. |
Road_warrior
Advanced Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 847
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 11:34 am: |
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Thanks Tech 833:
I'm only trying to understand all these
correct grounding procedures.
Ok, all grounds tied together.
How do i go about hooking everything together
if antenna/tower is on opposite sides of house
and the deal with my electric box/cable and
phones are hooked to waterpipes??? Should i have an electrician change it to ground-rods???
Then hook a ground-wire from my antenna ground
and run it around the house to hook up with
electric ground??? Or just use the water pipes? |
Road_warrior
Advanced Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 848
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
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SINKER: I have read many articles on grounding.
All which are different and to technical
for me. I have also been massively confused!
I know Tech 833 knows all the correct grounding
procedures. Tech 833, I do not have the
knowledge that you have on grounding. I am understanding the radio ground and
antenna/tower ground-rods all tied together.
I'm just confused on hooking this all together
with the electric grounds of my home. I have called some electricians in the area they are
clueless on NEC. |
Road_warrior
Advanced Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 849
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 12:20 pm: |
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Tech 833,
Another question has to my mind. I have
that plastic/rubber tubing from hardware stores
slid over my bare #6 copper wire to keep
it from oxidating. Is this a bad idea??? |
Kid_vicious
Advanced Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 621
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 10:02 pm: |
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road warrior, i know you are looking for tech833's advice, and so am i; i'd just like to throw my guess out there so maybe he'll comment on it. thanks.
i'm thinking that if you find the ground wire coming out of your electrical box, and pounded a ground rod in right next to the box, then you could "splice" into the ground wire on the box and connect it to your ground rod. then you dig a shallow trench from each ground rod to the next one and bury a ground wire in it that connects all the rods.
and i cant see a reason why the insulation would cause a problem. coax is insulated.
just guesses.
matt |
Hollowpoint445
Advanced Member
Username: Hollowpoint445
Post Number: 759
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 10:20 pm: |
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NEC 250-54 Common Grounding Electrode.
Where an ac system is connected to a grounding electrode in or at a building,...the same electrode shall be used to ground conductor enclosures and equipment in or at that building.
Where separate services supply a building and are required to be connected to a grounding electrode, the same grounding electrode shall be used.
Two or more grounding electrodes that are effectively bonded together shall be considered as a single grounding electrode system in this sense. |
Tech833
Member
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 72
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 11:24 pm: |
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O.K., let me tackle one thing at a time.
Yes, still connect your electrical ground if you are able. This will keep lightning from using your radio equipment as a path between the antenna and your house electrical system. EVERYTHING should be bonded together. Anything left out of the bond will likely get damaged in a strike.
Just run a copper wire (copper tubing works just as good) from your station ground rod around the base of the house to your electrical ground point (whatever that may be). No need to switch to rods or anything, just use what is already there.
Hook it all together with split bolts or other electrical clamps. Make sure the connection points are clean. I sometimes add some solder to the joints after they are clamped.
I have seen insulated wire and bare wire in installations, and I am not sure it makes much difference. If you use insulated wire, it will 'look' longer to lightning than bare wire, but if your run is short enough, I do not think it will matter much if at all. |
Kid_vicious
Advanced Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 626
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 2:10 am: |
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so no matter how many ground rods you have, if they are all tied together, then it's a single point ground? |
Road_warrior
Advanced Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 850
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 8:23 am: |
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Ok, thanks alot for the answers.
My # 6 copper groundwires are 3 ft
long coming off tower legs.
7 ft for my radio ground. |
Airplane1
Advanced Member
Username: Airplane1
Post Number: 569
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 12:48 pm: |
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Whew! glad thats over, I realy did`nt understand either till all this was said.
Thanks 833 for your knowlage, you`ve been a great help to me and I`m shure alot of others.
I am going to straighten all my grounds out tomarrow afternoon.
AP |
Tech833
Member
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 73
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 3:11 pm: |
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KV- Yes. |
Road_warrior
Advanced Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 851
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 3:45 pm: |
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Yeah, working on mine today to get them correct.
Thanks again Tech 833.
JIM/CEF 375 |
Kid_vicious
Advanced Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 633
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 9:55 pm: |
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you guys have NO IDEA what its like trying to pound in a ground rod in las vegas. i cant spell it but we have what's known as "colliche" underground. its big deposits of a clay like dirt that is so dense, that if a pool contractor finds a big enough patch of it in your backyard; they will not even break ground. they used to blast it into little pieces.
for me, ground rods are the bane of my radio existence.
and ground conductivity? HA! it's the desert!
matt |
Eagle_eye
New member
Username: Eagle_eye
Post Number: 9
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 11:36 pm: |
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listen to tech833 as he is the number 1 most knowledgeable person on antennas there is.
folow his advice and you cannot go wrong and everything will be as it should be.
ee |
Road_warrior
Advanced Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 853
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 12:40 am: |
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Hey Kid,
My soil here is 3-4ft of black dirt and
underneath that is some soft clay.
It takes only a few minutes to pound one
in 8ft. I hooked all my ground-rods together
today and got things tied in with my electric
house ground. |
Tech833
Member
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 75
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 11:11 am: |
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KV- I install most ground rods on mountaintop locations at communications sites. Mountains around CA are made of rock. Go to the tool rental store and rent an electric jackhammer. If you take the bit out, the socket will be almost the perfect size to fit over the end of an 8 foot ground rod. Using a jackhammer, I can get an 8 footer all the way into nearly solid rock within 30 minutes. That includes rest breaks to get the circulation back into my arms. |
Moderator136
Moderator
Username: Moderator136
Post Number: 111
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 2:59 pm: |
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Ok for people that has towers , most have 3 legs!
Its ok to ground all 3 legs but connect all 3 legs together in a common ground. diamond shape if you will !
The point is to have lighting hit the ground not your equitment or radios.
Now we go to the grounding for radios , lowpass filters , amps and power supplies , wire them all to a buss bar. I have a short jumber wire going to the switch box (antenna switch box) then have short braided wire 6 foot to a ground rod outside my window.
Also i have POLYPHASERS IN line also grounded to the switch box, POLYPHASERS iS A MUST HAVE!!!!!!!
Been hit with lighting 5 times , I followed Tech 833 instructions to the tee. Believe me he has the info you need!
Ok ask Tech 808 was talking to him on the air via echolink and BOOM Direct hit didint do any damage to radios or equitment, but it did fry my twin lead dipole and split a 50 foot oak tree in half! And was still on the air to talk about it.note: not a good ideal to have a qso during a lighting storm This storm came up quick.
Also check your weather conditions before you key the mic.I have a weather radar on the pc to check it !
Hope this helps !
Moderator136
CEF136
kc0svc
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Sinker
Member
Username: Sinker
Post Number: 83
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 3:33 pm: |
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Guess me being a bit dumb about all this has helped a few others out as well.
Hey Tech833 - that info on the jack hammer is GREAT. Of course I do not need it here in Florida as when I go down 8' I hit water - not much resistance ya know. Coming from California though I know what you mean as those mountain tops are tough. Lived in So Cal (Camarillo, Ventura, Ojai & Oak View for close to 30 years).
All my grounds (only two rods now - 1 I put in and 1 is the house electric) WILL be tied together - Think #4 Copper Strand will work or should I get some solid???
Thanks for all your help. |
Kid_vicious
Advanced Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 643
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 9:41 pm: |
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thanks 833, that is a great trick. that first couple of feet must be kinda hairy!
have you ever had the rod bend on you?
im kind of lucky that my antenna, my shack, and my house electrical box all run along the same side of the house.
PS, my house is grounded to a cold water pipe that is about 30 feet from the box.
since i can access this wire right as it comes out of the box, should i splice in and pound a ground rod in right outside of the box, leaving the cold water pipe ground hooked up also?
just dont want to waste time and money for no gain.
thanks,
matt |
Tech833
Member
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 76
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 12:15 pm: |
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Sinker- That #4 will be PLENTY.
KV- Your electrical ground has to travel 30 feet to a ground point??!! That does not even meet code (at least it doesn't in my area). I highly suggest installing a rod near the box as possible ASAP. Of course, keep the existing ground and bond them together. The more grounding, the better. |
Kid_vicious
Advanced Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 649
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 4:36 pm: |
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thanks 833, i have been wondering about this since i moved in here in feb.
the box is on the west side of the garage near the big door.
the hot water heater is on the north side of the garage next to the door that leads into the house.
the ground wire runs from the box, about 15 feet down the west wall and then about another 10 to 12 feet down the north wall to the cold water pipe.
all this while being 8 feet above ground.
thanks so much for the tip. i guess i'd better call the call before you dig number tomorrow.
matt |
Road_warrior
Advanced Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 858
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 10:14 pm: |
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Tech 833,
I hooked up my grounds as you said. Running
the wire from my antenna/station grounds
around the house to my electric ground. There
seems to be to many sharp bends. Would it
be ok if i ran the groundwire further out
into my back yard and pounded some more ground-rods in along the way and run it over that way. I
would also have to bury it 1/2 inch to avoid
cutting with lawn mower. Would this be ok???
Thanks
JIM/ Cef 375
PA |
Tech833
Member
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 80
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 6:50 pm: |
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Anything that makes you happy. Just remember the grounding rules, keep it short, and keep it tight. |
