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Therealporkchop
Intermediate Member
Username: Therealporkchop
Post Number: 108
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 5:34 pm: | 
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What is the obsession with a 1 watt dead-key? I am not doubting what any Tech here has said or will say. Nor am I trying to offend anyone either. Recently there was a discussion I was in about dead-key. A lot of guys around here believe they need a 1 watt dead-key. WHY? Especially if they are running an amp. WHY? Most amps can handle a 4 watt key. High Drive amps can handle more. Going against what I said in the second sentence of this post, I would believe Mr. Lou Franklin over anyone else. I have read a lot of Mr. Franklins books and it is in plain text that you don't have to run this low key. In fact, it isn't necessary, it's defeating the purpose. Most guys believe the 1 watt key thing because they are running an amp. Most amps require a 4 watt key. Turning down your key results in less wattage output from your amp. What is that? You have a swing kit in your radio? OK, glad you brought that up... Let's use the Galaxy radio for an example. You do either of these mods: you lift the leg of R238 and install the 1n4001 diode OR you flip the radio over to the solder side. You get yourself a 1n914 and a 51ohm resistor. Then you get the cap called for in that mod and install it up near the mic socket. Either one of these will give you over modulation. Which you can't control by the modulation adjustment pot inside the radio because you've bypassed it with this mod. The 914 mod, you've really done it to yourself, cause now you will have to run that 1 watt key or the radio won't swing like it did before. You won't achieve 100% modulation with a 4 watt or higher key. Why do people do this? I've done this mod before myself, but until I started using a scope to see what I was doing to my radio, I just went by a meter. Which, most meters are wrong anyway. But this is just a run-down of my experience, let's get back to the question. Why the 1 watt key? I know some of you by now are sick of hearing Mr. Franklin, well, he says that your audio is riding in the carrier. The lower the key, the lower the carrier. So why run a 1 watt key? Get yourself a scope, and see for yourself. I had a guy tell me his base radio had a 1 watt key. He is running an amp. I said I usually set my radios up with a 4 watt key on the low power setting and about 7.5 to 8 watts on the high setting. He just started shaking his head "no". Like that was not acceptable or something? I was thinking, this kid is missing out. There is a guy locally who does the same mods listed above. He, for some reason, is held a God in these other guys eyes. I personally think I could take a radio, lay it on my bench, heat up my soldering iron and stab out my eyeballs and make that radio talk better than he could. He is a clipper king and a fake. I could super mod radios all day long with this 1 watt super mod diode BS. And charge the 20 bucks or better that he does. But why would I want to do such? I could also stretch the rf choke coils in a radio like he does just to see the 3rd harmonics make the meter read higher than what the radio is actually putting out. Then set this magical unicorn 1 watt key and watch the needle swing to around 30 or 40 watts pep. Would that make me the CB GOD? No. But he held that way by the masses. He has preached this 1 watt •••• down these guys throats, and why? Why do any of you run this low of a key? What is the reason. I could be missing out here, but I doubt it. I really doubt it after reading everything Mr. Franklin has had to say. Could someone here please enlighten me about this issue? |
Kid_vicious
Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 80
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 12:33 am: |
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well, i happen to be a big fan of Mr. Franklin; the reason that people will turn their deadkey down is because when you feed a linear that was designed for 4 watts input with 4 watts, you leave no "headroom" for the wattage increase as you speak. if your radio is tuned for 4 watts deadkey then it could be doing as much as 16 watts when modulated. this will overdrive your amp and result in downward modulation. tuning the radio down to say 2 watts means that when modulated the wattage is less than 8 watts, allowing the amp to "breathe" more effectively and your amp will increase the wattage as you speak giving you the loudest possible signal. i dont think it has to be 1 watt but it should definitely be less than 3 watts.
matt |
Inspector
Intermediate Member
Username: Inspector
Post Number: 111
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 2:45 am: |
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I agree...There have been a lot of distortion and B.S. over the past couple years, about this 1W swing thing. When this mod came about it actually had a reason and a purpose. The mod was to give a higher swing from a LOWER deadkey; change the wave-shape to give the IMPRESSION of higher modulation without the side-effects of RFI and harmonics generation. In order to maintain these bennefits, you must retain a 4:1 ratio of carrier to swing...beyond that, and you defeat the purpose...you might as well clip-n-snip!!! I have seen all the messed-up ways this mod could be tried, using different value resistors and even different diodes, parrallel and in series and even backwards! I would guess it is that old "look at that meter jump" mentality, or perhaps the idea that a lower deadkey into an amp could lessen the stress on the pills (but the high swing drives the pills beyond their saturation point) Now for a shop or a tech to tout "1w swing to oblivion" as the latest and greatest thing we all need, either they are trying to pry an extra buck from us with snake-oil, or they realy do not know what they are doing! |
Therealporkchop
Intermediate Member
Username: Therealporkchop
Post Number: 109
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 1:21 pm: |
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Well, here is my take on what you said Matt. I agree with you, but, what you see swinging is PEP and it only last a very tiny amount of time. I've never seen a radio that would swing 16 watts average power period, let alone from a 2 watt key.
I just wondered what all the hoo-pla was over this 1 watt key thing. I don't see the point of it myself. If you do this to your radio, then you'll have to run the amp all the time. From my personal experience, a barefoot radio with 1 watt of key just doesn't sound as good as a radio with 4 or better. There is also the arguement over even running a linear in the first place. They are illegal on 11 meters period. And a lot of guys will say, if you have your antenna and coax and radio set up correctly you won't need one. But let's take high drive amps for the sake of this post. Texas Star shows a 350HDV only putting out 180 watts from a 4 watt input
To get the 350 you will need 20 watts of input. 20 watts of RMS, not PEP cause the PEP only happens for a split second anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I've done the 1n4001 mod to my Galaxy radios. I have used the 4/8 watt keys though. Still if you look at a scope you will see there is over modulation and drops in your audio, and Mr Franklin cleary shows this in his book "Understanding and Repairing CB Radios". The other 914 mod you do to the solder side of the board, you will only achieve the full swing if you use a low dead key. A high dead key will not let the radio achieve full modulation. So in my opinion this mod is useless unless you plan to run that low a key. |
Kid_vicious
Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 81
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 9:14 pm: |
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im not much of a fan of the npc mods myself, im always interested in hearing about a new mod but i dont do them to my radios. i also dont run a linear; i seem to be able to get out about the same with or without one so i spent my money on the antenna. the guy in your town touting this mod is probably doing so because its the only one he can do!
matt |
Therealporkchop
Intermediate Member
Username: Therealporkchop
Post Number: 111
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 5:33 pm: |
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I'm not trying to knock anyone who follows this belief of the 1 watt unicorn, I am just curious as to why people do it. I'd rather have the 4 watt carrier myself and follow this method because of what I have read by Mr Franklin. It doesn't mean it's the right way or the only way. I just know from experience that doing this mod to a Galaxy will cause you not to have full modulation if you turn up your dead key via the RF power control. You have to run the power setting on low for the 1 watt key. Maybe I am harping over the wrong thing here. Maybe my problem is with this guy locally and not the mod itself or the belief of running a low key is better than a higher key. Just kinda ticked me off the reaction I got from that kid. Plus the fact that I have carried my radio to the same CB God they place so much faith in and he ripped me off big time. He's one of those guys that uses a false reading meter to get you to think he's turned up your radio. Got me for 25 bucks. But either way regardless of my complaint, if you look at a scope and see the distortion or over modulation why would you want to run your radio like that? I don't blame you for spending your money in your antenna Matt. I just realized my link to Texas Star got edited. You can go to their site though and see the chart I got those figures from. |
Patzerozero
Intermediate Member
Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 302
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 9:38 pm: |
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porkchop, read about tests i did, product reviews>>amplifiers>>transistor questions.
i've always gone 'higher carrier power-with not as much swing' route, til i bought into the S9 hype. my testing isn't complete, but it confirmed what i always thought. it also confirmed the overly generous wattmeter readings theories, and 3 watt grant XL's and cobra 29's are every bit the talkers magnum claims the S9 is, if not more.
and i saw what i was told by experts(?) that at 3-4 watts dead key, whatever swing could possibly be imagined probably ISN'T there in reality, & isn't affecting (AM, atleast) transmissions.
as you said, this isn't written to ruffle feathers, and maybe i have a SUPER grant XL and a dog of an S9, but i saw what i measured on a bird 43 wattmeter(i know, it could've been turned up too...)and my son had no reason to say what he DIDN'T hear, but
HIGHER CARRIER POWER & HIGHER DEAD KEYS RULE |
Inspector
Intermediate Member
Username: Inspector
Post Number: 114
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 4:54 am: |
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Porkchop, you are right with the point, that part of the thought of the low key-high swing thing, is to get higher output from an amp. The "virtual" PEP you get, drives the amp's pills past their saturation point at a lower duty cycle (the short period of time you mentioned). This alows the amp to get almost the SSB output power while in the AM mode, while not cooking the transistors. I used to run a TS-250DX this way for ten years and it never got but warm to the touch. |
Fusebreaker
Junior Member
Username: Fusebreaker
Post Number: 48
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 2:12 pm: |
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I personaly like to use a 3 watt deadkey and 12 watts swing on the cobra 148 it seems to run smooth and sound alwright and it does not overdrive the final.I use lsb not much AM I turn the ssb power up to about 14.5 watts i try not to over do it.It would probaly do more if volted but might burn the final up fast. |
Carls86fiero
Member
Username: Carls86fiero
Post Number: 54
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 2:43 pm: |
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SWING is nothing more than an EGO booster...to me it does nothing to help you make contact. |
Hollowpoint445
Intermediate Member
Username: Hollowpoint445
Post Number: 359
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 6:47 pm: |
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If your AVERAGE power output is lower, so is your signal strength and your communication range. That's why nearly all amateur radios have built in speech processors - they raise the average power output of the SSB signal which allows you to communicate further. |
Kilowatt
Intermediate Member
Username: Kilowatt
Post Number: 207
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 9:01 am: |
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I run 350 watts carrier on the ham bands, and don't seem to have any problems getting out...
All of that swing stuff is a gimmick. It came about because the old CB sweep-tube amps couldn't take a high dead key. I mean come on, the tubes they used were designed to be used in a TV-not a CB amplifier!
Someone figured out that they could dupe folks into looking at a distorted (overmodulated) signal on a wattmeter and be fooled into beleiving that their amp was doing more than it actually was (harmonics).
In other words, "Don't believe the hype." Get a good amp and run a 1:4 carrier to PEP ratio. Trust me, it is the best way... AND your stuff will last a LOT longer.
Think - do you ever see a 50 KW AM broadcast station "super-modding?" A 500 KW shortwave station? If AM could be improved by utilizing all of that "distortion swing," these guys would do it...
Just my 2 cents! |
Hollowpoint445
Intermediate Member
Username: Hollowpoint445
Post Number: 367
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 2:17 pm: |
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Well said Kilowatt! If it worked so well then AM broadcasters would do it to get whatever edge they could get over the competition. Watch an AM broadcast signal and it won't move much if at all. They use a full carrier and LOTS of audio processing to keep modulation right at 100% so they're as loud as possible all of the time.
What do you use for AM Kilowatt? |
Crackerjack
Advanced Member
Username: Crackerjack
Post Number: 646
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 7:53 pm: |
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I don't "swing" in AM. I don't think Lon set my radio that way. Mine is "pre-blue face".
When I used the KL-400 (solid state) with my 595, I ran the transmitter wide open.
The M-257 on a KLV-350 (tube), and KL-400 (solid state) ran better -farther with a low carrier < 1W dead key and gave me 400w PEP out..
Here is what I think, whatever combination (depending on the radio and amp) makes the best contacts -do THAT.
I run 1/2W dead key -go to Side-Band on my 257 / kl-203 (I sold the KLV-350 tube) and yet I run wide open on my dx-959 kl-400. Same mics (D-104 hand) on both.
I get max DX that way, which by the way, go farther on the 257 -with or without the amp. I think that is just the quality of the modulation. Of course I run wide open without the amp.
We use AM radios with kl-40's in our vehicles, and just leave the radio at whatever the factory power spec was -wide open, set with 100% modulation. The operator can't adjust it and we see as high as 50W output that way.
I don't think a kl-203 would run well that way. But I am just telling you what works for me. And I get good DX reports.
Disclaimer: These vehicles are in Mexico.
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Bigbob
Senior Member
Username: Bigbob
Post Number: 1970
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 5:22 am: |
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I don't swing at all,my wife likes me that way,lol,finally some sanity on this subject,I actually read all the posts,too. |
Coyote
Intermediate Member
Username: Coyote
Post Number: 237
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 2:37 pm: |
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LOL @ Bob.....  |
Crackerjack
Advanced Member
Username: Crackerjack
Post Number: 655
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 4:37 pm: |
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Bob, I bet you swing AM and FM ,,,, LOL |
Patzerozero
Advanced Member
Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 916
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 10:49 pm: |
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i...better not say it.
'All of that swing stuff is a gimmick' and 'In other words, "Don't believe the hype." Get a good amp and run a 1:4 carrier to PEP ratio. Trust me, it is the best way... AND your stuff will last a LOT longer'-kilowatt, you contradicted yourself AND are 100% correct AT THE SAME TIME!!!
if you have higher then 0% modulation, you will have swing on AM. yes, you want the MOST carrier you can get out of the transistors without smokin' 'em. if a 2-2290 amp will key 100 & swing 150 without exploding (when it should key 40 & swing 150)then go for it! you don't want it to key 4 & swing 150, because the guy doing 40 is gonna crush you. usually a 1:40 ratio like that sounds like garbage. the magnum topgun radios got that 1:40 ratio(1 watt key w/40 watts swing)to sound good, but you can't match it to an amp easily.
my S9 is tuned & then adjusted to 10-12 watts key with 42+ watts swing, a much better match. & it does sound different then 1 key 40 swing.
so you can't say 'don't go for swing', you need some! my old dx667v was set 1:2 or less & SMOKED!!! it ran hot, but a few fans kept it running. & it beat out plenty of other 667's set at 1:4. |
Heavyweight
Junior Member
Username: Heavyweight
Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
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I Think this 1 watt key is BS!Most if not all radios sound much better with a key of 4 watts or better anyway.A lot of the radios i have heard with the low dead key mod all sound fuzzy and destorted.I mean really whats the point of having that big swing if your radio sound's like ••••! |
Patzerozero
Advanced Member
Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 926
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 11:27 pm: |
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that's what i said, HW. the magnum radios are the only radios that sound good with that kind of ratio. i can take my grant XL & vary the output down so low that my davemade will key just a couple of watts & swing 700 or 800 or more. now THAT sounds like JUNK(sidebanding). for all out talkpower, you really want the ratio to be closer then 1:4.if you can get 1:2, you'll have more talkpower then the guy with the same amp at 1:4. |
Couchpotatoe
Junior Member
Username: Couchpotatoe
Post Number: 15
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 11:53 am: |
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NOW I LIKE WHAT PATZEROZERO HAD TO SAY ABOUT (2) 2290'S, AND THAT IS THE VEY TRUTH...100W D.K. AND A SWING UP TO 150W...200W D.K. AND A SWING OF UP TO 300W...AND SO ON AND SO FORTH. THER IS 2/3 THE POWER IN YOU DEAD KEY AND 1/3 IN THE MODULATION. |
Thehobo
Junior Member
Username: Thehobo
Post Number: 16
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 10:57 am: |
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used a 1 to 4 ratio since 1958 and still liking it
oh ya, no materr what product im using, i only try to use it up to about 80% of its output to allow things to breath?? no funny mods, just a good tune up with a signal generator, scope, and other assorted things needed to keep the mod enevlope with in the 100% range of the power settings?? like ive said, no complaints since 1958?? not to shabby i think!! lol
thehobo
274150 am
monitor ch. |
Twowatt
New member
Username: Twowatt
Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 5:59 pm: |
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please show me my error. i thought that a 1 to 3 ratio was exactly 100% modulation. (p.s. we use to run 120-125% modj when i was a dj in the 70's playing that old time rock & roll...today's music ain't got the same soul...thanks b.s.) |
Bruce
Senior Member
Username: Bruce
Post Number: 2935
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 7:39 pm: |
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125% POS mod can be done the limit is 100% NEG mod. |
