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Wolverine
Intermediate Member
Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 210
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 4:11 am: | 
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I guess my last posted topic about mobile antenna wars didn't make the thread and was edited for content, omitting a company name (must be a taboo), for what ever reason.
So, let me rephrase my question. There is a new mobile antenna on the market called the Black Roadmaster Z-180. The antenna is the 2nd longest antenna on the market at 77 and 1/2 inches.
This antenna is 10 and 1/2" longer than my Wilson 5000. The industry standard is the SS 102" whip. Will this extra 10 or 12" in antenna length improve performance or will the gains be nominal?
Wolverine.
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Wolverine
Generally, the longer and/or higher you can get ANY antenna, the further away it will be heard.
I do have a question though. What are the specs of this antenna? Such as gain, material, and especially wavelength, etc, etc.
Jeff
Tech548 |
Bruce
Senior Member
Username: Bruce
Post Number: 1447
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 7:04 am: |
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I agree with jeff remember when you shorten a antenna you increase losses. |
Wolverine
Intermediate Member
Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 211
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 7:45 am: |
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Tech548, the only thing I can remember off-hand (Catalog is at home), is that the whip is a 1/4 wave antenna, the coil itself looks identical to Valor's "Big Bubba" coil, with an extra 1" height advantage, and the whip itself is 77 and 1/2" long. The Black Roadmaster Z-180 looks like a compromise to the SS102" whip, minus 24 and 1/2". I'm wondering if the other antenna manufacturers, are going to come up with their solution in added inches to out do this "New kid on the block".
Wolverine.
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Wolverine
Intermediate Member
Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 212
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 9:19 am: |
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Okay, scratch what I said above as far as specs. Here is the "Skinny" on the Black Roadmaster Z-180, just in. Rated at 2000 watts, adjustable Baseloaded, 20% more power gain than competitors, waterproof coil, 5/8th's wave performance, mag-mount stays on at even 90 mph, broadbanded freq- 26mhz to 30mhz, covers all bands AM/FM/SSB/CW, 69" carbon tapered, stainless steel whip, anti-static ball tip for less noise, can be used on Wilson mag-mounts, low swr, antenna angle can be adjusted at the base of the whip, total antenna height is 77 and 1/2". Tech548, hope this answers your questions, for comparisons.
Wolverine. |
Alsworld
Advanced Member
Username: Alsworld
Post Number: 856
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 11:32 am: |
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Francis has had their 96" Amazer for years. I was real impressed with that antenna. Also Firestick has their 84" 3/4 wave antennas, and Skipshooter makes an 84"er as well, so there are a few manufactures that make the longer antennas still.
At least there are some options for those of us that like the longer antennas.
The Z-180 boast some big claims, "20% more power and db gain than Wilson or its competitors". Sounds impressive, but I've got to think that maybe we took last years Christmas present, rewrapped it in new package, throw in some marketing hype and out pops these claims.
Don't get me wrong, it's a darn fine looking antenna, and the advertising sounds great, but, I'm still somewhat skeptical. It may be worth trying out though if you've got the cash. I doubt anyone would be dissappointed using it, but beat a Wilson (or it's competitors) by 20%? Pretty gutsy claims....
Alsworld |
Highlander
Advanced Member
Username: Highlander
Post Number: 570
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 2:11 pm: |
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5/8's wave performance from an antenna that is less than a 1/4 wavelengh long, eh? Alrighty then. Their marketing guy must have worked for JoGunn!
I have a couple of nice bridges for sale, email me if interested.... |
Hollowpoint445
Intermediate Member
Username: Hollowpoint445
Post Number: 218
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 3:25 pm: |
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The extra length helps, but it's just another base loaded, shortened 1/4 wavelength antenna. Depending on how efficient the coil is it may not even be better than the Wilson 1000.
People claim all kinds of things about antennas. What amazes me is that people buy the claims. The one about it being a 5/8 wave is probably the most gratuitous.
A 5/8 wavelength antenna has gain because of it's actual length. When you shorten the antenna the gain goes away. When it reaches 18' it's just a 1/2 wavelength antenna, and when it's 9' it's a 1/4 wavelength antenna. It doesn't matter how you load it or where you put the coils.
I can create a coil about 1' tall that I can call a 5/8 wavelength antenna, but I'm pretty sure it'll radiate a pattern like a ball instead of a doughnut. |
Patzerozero
Junior Member
Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 17
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 8:47 pm: |
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fight-fight!!
no serious antenna uses a magnet mount-they're hard mounted. if you're using some hd power, you want to make sure it doesn't burn up. i used 7' skipshooter for years with no problems-could always hear and be heard. when the 'big boys' started to use the solid, heavy open air coil, the ones that loked like a super penetrator or A3000 on steroids, i tried many. some worked better than others. key was less than 1.5 swr from 26.5-27.8, then i'd try it.old galaxy 25k showed gain, to the ear, over skipshooter, so that was it. till it was stolen. have tried others, homemade & commercially built. predator shows gain , so do others. isn't that what we all are looking for? EXPERIMENT! though 6plus feet and more always seems best. forget the gimmicks-ground planes, halos, hats, & whatever else they may hang off the antenna-waste of $ |
Bruce
Senior Member
Username: Bruce
Post Number: 1451
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 11:15 pm: |
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HUAAAAAAAAA?
Lets see a 5/8 wave RADiATOR will gave gain NOW load it to 3/4 wave with a wound coil and feed the coil and you have about a 50 ohm match direct feed. IF you SHORTEN the 5/8 RADiATOR the lobe changes and gain goes away! ......... O you also need a ground plane under the radiator to make it work ....... at CB your wip is over 20 foot tall and if its not then its not going to work. |
Tech548
Moderator
Username: Tech548
Post Number: 218
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 12:09 am: |
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Patzerozero
Your statement of 6 feet and more puts it all in a nutshell. You couldn't be more correct.
6 feet "IS" the magic number. And anything beyond that can only get better.
Yes, 5/8 wave antennas rule....There is no question about that. What I'll never understand is why anyone would even consider a 1/4 "anything" over a 1/2 wave, or better yet, a 5/8 wave.
As your post implied, people seem to buy into hype too easily. Example...Wilson. Wilson makes a VERY good antenna. Very durable, tough magnet and/or mounting hardware. But, they are still only a 1/4 antenna. And yes, they more than likely will outperform other coil-loaded 1/4 wave antenns of equal length and even probably some poorly designed 1/2 wave antennas. But the bottom line here is the fact that they are still only 1/4 antennas.
If you want to start talking some nonskip long distance, then move up to at least a 1/2 wave. Or better yet, a 5/8 wave or even a 3/4 wavelength.
In my personal opinion, Wilson makes the best coil-loaded 1/4 wave antenna on the market. But the 5/8 waves will out-distance them in range. Why?? Because the 5/8 wave has a lower angle of radiation. And "lower angle of radiation" means the farther away a RF signal with voice will be seen and heard because the signal stays closer to the ground longer.
Before someone gets teed off at me, I want them to realize that some people are happy to just talk around town, and distance really means nothing to them. That's OK, because non-skip distance talking isn't for everyone. And if that's the case, just about ANY antenna will work for you.
Jeff
Tech548 |
Wolverine
Intermediate Member
Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 213
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 9:18 am: |
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Took me a couple of days to research this topic, because I figured that even 10 extra inches must count for something. So I gave in. Patzerozero's magic number of 6ft made sense, so did tech548 about moving up to a 5/8's wave. Everyone had good responses. I figure because the coil of the wilson has a higher Q factor, that makes for higher power handling over the bubba and Z-180 ants. Even bruce mentioned about the more coil, the more line losses. Bottom line is that a 1/4 wave ant, is just another 1/4 wave ant. I feel totally adrift and confused, defeated, and "Sucked in" by the outrageous claims of these antenna companies preying for my dollars. I am ashamed to admit, that I am an antenna junkie, and I am enrolling in the next alcoholics, I mean "antennas anonoymous class!! That's it!!. No more!!
Wolverine. |
Pig040
Advanced Member
Username: Pig040
Post Number: 552
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 1:44 pm: |
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Yeah, right, I said that 5 antennas ago, then 4, then 3..... |
Tech548
Moderator
Username: Tech548
Post Number: 233
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 9:23 pm: |
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Wolverine
When and where are these "Antennas Anonoymous" therapeutic classes held. Save me a seat.
Jeff |
Tech548
Moderator
Username: Tech548
Post Number: 236
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 9:26 pm: |
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Wolverine
When and where are these "Antennas Anonoymous" therapeutic classes held. Save me a seat.
Jeff |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 825
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 12:05 pm: |
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I suppose that would make me the 'drug dealer' then.. |
Cuddlebear
Intermediate Member
Username: Cuddlebear
Post Number: 228
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 9:54 pm: |
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There are a lot of the Wilson 5000 antennas sold. I haven't seen anything that they can't beat for a mobile. The Truckers don't seem to want anything else. They are a great antenna.
 |
Bruce
Senior Member
Username: Bruce
Post Number: 1464
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 11:16 pm: |
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I have found .....
NOTHING BEATS A 1/4 wave wip .....
THAT SAID a VERY CLOSE 2nd are the 7 foot hamwips and not too far behind the 5-6 foot wilsons/K-40 class. Not even in the running are the 2-3 foot antennas ... all are junk. |
Patzerozero
Junior Member
Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 25
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 11:17 pm: |
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now listen HEAR, gosh darnit you ole cuddlebear, you. i did say experiment-it just costs a little bit of $. to my ear and s-meter, no fancy equipt, i have seen a noticable difference using those big obnoxious oversized skipshooting pieces of metal. i just keep on tryin' 'em til one seems better than some others i've tried. then i take it off and try another! unfortunately i'm using a wilson 2000 magnet mount(already 2 strikes against what i believe in) til i get acouple of things set, but that's because it works. when i'm 'ready', i'll replace it with what i feel is superior, a hard mounted predator, with a bunch of holes drilled into my shiny sheet metal! and yes, it's about 84" tall |
Wolverine
Intermediate Member
Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 214
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 6:13 pm: |
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I borrowed a very good book on antenna theory from a friend, entitled "The Truth About CB Antennas" by William I. Orr, and Stuart D. Cowen (1976). On page 116, there is an amazing graph showing antenna efficiencies, and losses according to height. According to the graph, if a 102" whip has 100% efficiency, then 4 ft ants have 40%, a 5ft would have 60%, and a 6ft 80% (The magic height). A 7ft ant would have between 92-93%, and a 8 footer would have 96 to 98% efficiency.
Of course, mother nature has the final word as far as skip propagation. The anttron A-1700 which I already have, and at 1/2 wavelengths, will probably blow the Z-180, firesticks, and wilson silverloads of equal height, out of the water, because those lesser 1/4 ants are wound with 18 to 14 guage wire. I believe the Wilson 5000 will give the anttron A-1700, all and then some a run for it's money. Reason being is Wilson's larger diameter coil, wound with 10 guage copper wire. Results may vary in certain applications. Tech 548, I still trying to get the nerve to go thru the door, and sit in that seat, only because I will have to make that opening statement to the audience " My name is Wolverine, and I am hooked on Tech 833's drugs, and I just can't seem to say no". LOL.
Wolverine. |
Allagator
Intermediate Member
Username: Allagator
Post Number: 447
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 8:09 pm: |
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well lets use your radio and use my 102" whip and compare the diff in the 2 !!!!!
just my 2 cent but what do i know im a big mouth Allagator !!!! |
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