Author |
Message |
Pp1616
Junior Member Username: Pp1616
Post Number: 37 Registered: 2-2004
| Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 2:37 pm: |
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i just want to know what u tech's run for a base antenna like a a99 or imax 2000 style or even the aluminum ones.. im looking for somthing to use for local talk when im not using my beam.. it will be up about 50ft in the air or more. also what is the best coax to use for a beam, i like the lmr-400 but sense the beam moves i know that u need somthing pretty flexible. oh and just to let u know i run a galaxy saturn and talk between 26.915-27.875... thanks for any info =) Portugue pig 1616 cef#301 |
Buck
Advanced Member Username: Buck
Post Number: 807 Registered: 3-2002
| Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 4:17 pm: |
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Imax 2000.......Dollar for dollar the best antenna made!!!!!!!! Buck |
Tech808
Moderator Username: Tech808
Post Number: 1690 Registered: 8-2002
| Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 4:49 pm: |
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Pp1616, Right now all I have up is my Signal Engineering 4 element Quad White Lighting Beam's. I am letting CEF #156 Redman use my Anttron 305 so he can be on the Air and join us on the Sunday CEF Net's. So no OMNI as yet but waiting on a New Omni to arrive. I also use an Anttron 2 Meter Omni Base Antenna. And My Cushcraft R-5 when I get it back up. Lon Tech808 |
Pp1616
Junior Member Username: Pp1616
Post Number: 41 Registered: 2-2004
| Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 9:18 pm: |
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thanks alot for the info guys thanks for geting back to me |
Cactusjack
Intermediate Member Username: Cactusjack
Post Number: 125 Registered: 7-2003
| Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 12:14 am: |
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Pp1616, Times microwave also makes a "LMR 400 ultra flex" for use on beams. I have the regular LMR 400 and it is pretty stiff but the ultra flex is very flexible. |
Pig040
Intermediate Member Username: Pig040
Post Number: 312 Registered: 7-2003
| Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 10:52 am: |
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Hey 808, How do you like that antenna? Have you ever had problems with the wires coming off? How does it act in high winds? Thanks for the info. |
Tech808
Moderator Username: Tech808
Post Number: 1702 Registered: 8-2002
| Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 12:48 pm: |
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Pig040, I LOVE IT I have Never had any Problem's with the wires even when they had 3 inches of ice on them. The antenna and all of it's part's are very well constructed. High Winds, well we have had from 45 to 70mph winds for over 24 hours straight and Never had a problem. Quad Antennas have a very Low Wind Load. Since putting them up I have found the FLAT Side work's best and actually only switch to the Vertical maybe less than 1% of the time. Lon Tech808
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Bigbob
Senior Member Username: Bigbob
Post Number: 1698 Registered: 12-2001
| Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 7:48 pm: |
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Man if I had the money and help,I'd do a product review on a fixed position stacked pair of lightning 8's,that would have some gain,heck to turn these I would use a 173 to 1 reduction box and a 25 horse briggs. and a centrifugal clutch/mag.brake combo.Bigbob |
Pig040
Intermediate Member Username: Pig040
Post Number: 313 Registered: 7-2003
| Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 10:04 am: |
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I bought the JoGunn when I had space limitations, now that I dont I was thinking of going with an antenna with a bigger mast, who sells those, I went to the web site, and they dont give prices. |
Ca346
Advanced Member Username: Ca346
Post Number: 625 Registered: 8-2003
| Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 7:26 pm: |
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Well..... ask them! They must not want to scare off the customers |
Pp1616
Junior Member Username: Pp1616
Post Number: 45 Registered: 2-2004
| Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 9:48 am: |
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thanks guys ill have to check out that lmr-400 ultra flex.. has any one on the forum used the lmr 400 ultra flex?? would like to know how it is before i brake the bank open hehehe |
Pig040
Intermediate Member Username: Pig040
Post Number: 318 Registered: 7-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 10:02 am: |
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It leads you to believe since they dont post the prices on their own website, there may be a wide variance in prices from different dealers. Usually they post suggested retail, and then you shop around from there. |
Cuddlebear
Member Username: Cuddlebear
Post Number: 95 Registered: 3-2002
| Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 5:53 pm: |
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Well, I'm not a tech, But I have had my A-99 for several years. With excellent results. Although I must admit the GPK-1 didn't do anything for the antenna. But I get out real good with the 99. Best antenna I have ever had. |
Bruce
Senior Member Username: Bruce
Post Number: 1095 Registered: 9-2003
| Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 2:08 pm: |
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Short of stacked beams .... as a rule a 5/8 wave or a better 1/2 wave is all you need. Yea I know the beams will kick bu** but on my 60 by 90 lot an't going to happen. |
Bullet
Intermediate Member Username: Bullet
Post Number: 295 Registered: 7-2003
| Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 10:26 pm: |
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the best ones ive ever run are.... omni directional: would be a colinear array.hands down the best! unidirectional: would be a 4 element quad i just built. ya a little 4 element it shows a considerable improvement in forword lobe patern over my 34 foot 6 element quad. and its not nearly as tight as the six was.(30*) the 4 element is about the size of a laser 400. i'll get a pic of it when im done monkeying with it. bruce my director spacing is the size of jogunns 3 element beams thought youd enjoy that .haha |
Bullet
Intermediate Member Username: Bullet
Post Number: 297 Registered: 7-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 6:45 pm: |
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opps i mean thier 4 element....12 feet |
Pp1616
Intermediate Member Username: Pp1616
Post Number: 101 Registered: 2-2004
| Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 2:42 pm: |
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starting to get sick of looking and reading about antenna's still not sure what to go with. i really dont care about price just would like ot keep it under 200$ and it cant be a because "it will make the house look bad" bahh can wait to move back to my house with my tower and put my new beam up, even i would have the beam then i would like to have a OMNI antenna to for local. i have been thinking about the imax2000 and well i have not seen enough showing me there any beter then the a99. iv really been looking at the maco 5/8's think i might just end up tryen that one if i dont like it sell it i guess. any one that would like to sell me on a antenna please any info would be great =) |
Tech808
Moderator Username: Tech808
Post Number: 2113 Registered: 8-2002
| Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 6:24 pm: |
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Pp1616, If you read Tech833's Review Located in the Area Below: IMAX 2000 Exposed it will Answer ALL OF YOUR QUESTION's. Copper Talk » Subscriber (Preview) » Product Reviews » Imax 2000 Exposed » Review After reading his REVIEW no one should have to sell you on it. The FACT's ARE THERE! Hope this help's. Lon Tech808 |
Buck
Advanced Member Username: Buck
Post Number: 862 Registered: 3-2002
| Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 8:05 am: |
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I2K.....You wont be sorry!! Buck |
Pp1616
Intermediate Member Username: Pp1616
Post Number: 104 Registered: 2-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:15 am: |
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well my buddy is leting me try out his imax 2000 brand new in the box so we will see how she works =) |
Pp1616
Intermediate Member Username: Pp1616
Post Number: 105 Registered: 2-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:25 am: |
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oh i also forgot to say that the guy next door called and im still going through his stuff just not as bad, thats why im looking for a new antenna any of u who have seen my post on my set up knows its a pretty good set up its not cheap junk equipment well grounded good coax. jumpers are belden mini8x and my coax going to my antenna is lmr-400 my antenna base is oh about 36 feet off the ground and is about 10ft over the the house next to me who is the guy im having trouble with. and its well grounded to along with my equipment thats also grounded. i also run a filter. so im guessing its the a99 seeing as every one i know that owns thim has had pretty much same problem with thim. i cant wait to try that imax2000 |
Sitm
Intermediate Member Username: Sitm
Post Number: 102 Registered: 1-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 4:07 pm: |
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I switched to the Imax 2000. I use to have TVI on my own tv with the a99. I no longer have tvi problems with the Imax 2000. And I have better signal reports with the Imax 2000. |
Pp1616
Intermediate Member Username: Pp1616
Post Number: 106 Registered: 2-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 11:04 am: |
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ok im pretty sold on the imax but here is my next ? for te day... base of my antenna is about 36ft off the ground should i get the GPK kit for it. i was thinking i would get it just for added help even if it was only a small amount of help, because with my problem any lil bit will help |
Bullet
Intermediate Member Username: Bullet
Post Number: 310 Registered: 7-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 6:50 pm: |
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pp1616, you need a 1:1 balun at the feed point of the antenna. snap on ferrite chokes work well for this use 3 or 4 of them were the coax screws on the antenna and zip tie in place.(copper sells them) you also need to go higher on your tower to get the neighbors house out of your antennas near feild and to change the take off angle of its pattern. this is the bigest reason for tvi when things otherwise are good. (antenna to close to neihbors or power,phone lines.) also ground plan radials help some, as well as wire radials at the base of tower put in the ground a couple inches. id use at least 6 or 8 of them and try to get them around a wavelength long if possible if not, as long as you can. |
Kc0gxz
Advanced Member Username: Kc0gxz
Post Number: 735 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 9:16 pm: |
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Pp1616 The GPK for the I-Max wouldn't hurt. But I'm curious to know just what you are getting into at the neighbors house. Since you have the base of the I-Max at 36 feet, I'm surprised that you're getting into anything. Jeff, kc0gxz. |
Pp1616
Intermediate Member Username: Pp1616
Post Number: 108 Registered: 2-2004
| Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 2:03 pm: |
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tv,satellite,phones,computer,baby monitor....thats just runing the radio... my antenna is over the top of his house and over the top of the power lines but only by 5 ft.. im about 80-100 ft i would say from his house to my antenna. im well grounded and im runing a tvi filter |
Santa
Junior Member Username: Santa
Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2001
| Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 5:23 am: |
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bullet: you said a person could use a 1:1 balun at the feed point. i have one from radio works & want to use it. my question is if my antenna bracket is mounted to a 3'mast & the mast is mounted inside the tower sleeve, can i just hook the balun to the feed point on the antenna? or use a short piece of groung strap from the tower to the small screw on the balun where there is a piece of copper strap attached? tower is 37' up & is grounded. i don't think adding more wire to earth ground would work because of tower height. correct? sorry for the long post. i was told by radio works to try just hooking the balun to feed point without useing the ground strap & see if this helps with some small rf problems i'm having. they say that antenna bracket is attached to mast & then to tower sleeve which all is grounded to tower at base. thanks to anyone that wants to reply. santa |
Sitm
Intermediate Member Username: Sitm
Post Number: 117 Registered: 1-2004
| Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 10:39 am: |
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My Imax is (at base of antenna) at about sixty to 70 feet. That puts the antenna in the 80 ft range. Seems to do ok, have no tvi complaints from neighbors. I only run a kl 40 but only rarely. Other than that the radios run 4 watts. I do have one that runs 8-10. But I don't use the kl 40 on it. So I do believe that alot of tvi depends on grounding and antenna coax quality. I like the Imax 2000. I do intend to get a small beam. Maybe a directional like the signal lightning something or the other. There have been accouple guys on here really talk those up alot. 73 |
Bullet
Intermediate Member Username: Bullet
Post Number: 320 Registered: 7-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 7:52 pm: |
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santa, im unsure of your setup,cant get a mental picture i guess.. but you can use the snapon chokes or coil the coax in 6-8 inch dia coils for about 6-8 turns right before the antenna. i think the balun your talking about is one used for wire antennas.(am i thinking right?)
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Bullet
Intermediate Member Username: Bullet
Post Number: 321 Registered: 7-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 8:11 pm: |
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my colinear's bottom element is about 35 feet from the ground at the feed point and 65 feet at the feed point of the top element. i figure (guess)the main lobe is around 50+ feet from the ground. you guys should try this you'll never go back to a single vertical. aprox 3 db over a single vertical. if i can find more tower to match this tower id like to put up another set to make a four element colinear array. now thats some serious gain for an omni directional antenna. aprox 6 db over a single vertical. |
Dindin
Member Username: Dindin
Post Number: 69 Registered: 2-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 9:13 pm: |
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Bullet,you've sparked my intrest!can you e-mail me some more info on your colinear array?I've been mauling over the idea for several months now.My addy is still in my profile.Thanks |
Santa
Junior Member Username: Santa
Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 9:43 am: |
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bullet: i have close to the same set up as Pp1616 except my antenna is a sirio 2016. it has 16 radials around the bottom of the coil. about 3' long and in a reply to him you said he could try a 1:1 balun or ferrit chokes at the feed point. i think i may have misunderstood. the balun i have is for rf and i think can be used on vertical antennas. but i'll give both a try and see which one works best. thanks santa |
Gonzo
Junior Member Username: Gonzo
Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2004
| Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 7:16 pm: |
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A 4 ele beam is a good performer. If you aren't inclined to deal with rotors and have limited space. Then you have a few good choices. A 5/8 wave vertical...is probably the best all Omni direction antenna Followed closely by the weird but very good performing Astro-Plane My personal favorite is (was) the Antenna Specialist Super Scanner, as this gave you better than 1/2 wave performance in omni position, and 2 1/2 ele beam performance without any rotors. By far the best fixed antenna made. SWR on legal CB bands is fine. |
Airplane1
Intermediate Member Username: Airplane1
Post Number: 167 Registered: 5-2004
| Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 9:15 am: |
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I got a maco v 5/8 from copper and like it very much, The SWRs are 1.1 flat across the channels and I only have it at 7ft to base(tower not up yet) and talked to Mexico,and talk local around 35 miles regularly. Just think what it will do at 36ft or more, and I live in a valley. I think you should check the maco v out. |
Dale
Junior Member Username: Dale
Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2002
| Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 2:44 pm: |
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i got i max 2k also great talker terrible with tv bleedover think bout going aluminum. maco5/8 groundplane. any opions |
Tech808
Moderator Username: Tech808
Post Number: 3884 Registered: 8-2002
| Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 4:43 pm: |
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Dale, something must be wrong somewhere as we run the IMAX and Beams and Ham Antennas as well as several other CEF Members around here who use the IMAX 2000's and Corncob CEF #166 is less than 1/8 mile away. No TV Bleedover or TVI at all here or at neighbors. Many of the CEF Members have been to the House here and seen our setup and we have NO Problems with Neighbors or our own items. All of our Radios, Switches, Meters, Speakers, Coax, Rotor and Rotor Box, Power Supplies, Amps, Test Equipment, TVI Filters, and PolyPhasers, Towers and Push up poles as well as all of the Antennas (Ham and CB) & Mast pipes, Tower are all well Grounded. Overkill maybe, but we have never had any problems here or with neighbors no matter what amount of power we use. |
Dale
Junior Member Username: Dale
Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2002
| Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 2:04 pm: |
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ive had everything grounded also no change wel execpt for all those extra wires . haha. was told by a ham operator i need both low/high pass filter 1goes inline with radio other goes on tv . still wondering bout those macos5/8 gp ill have 2 see if i can find a review on them . i just really like the way they look in the air |
Tech808
Moderator Username: Tech808
Post Number: 3889 Registered: 8-2002
| Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 5:23 pm: |
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Dale, The one thing you did not mention is what is your Modulation set at, and has your radio been clipped or the AMC Circuit Modified or a Swing kit installed. If none of the above applies, then check all of your coax and jumpers. Actually to give it a good test Unhook everything in line except the radio and the antenna and try it and let us know and also hook another radio up and see if you still have the same problem. |
Allagator
Intermediate Member Username: Allagator
Post Number: 484 Registered: 9-2002
| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 5:03 pm: |
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Dale check the ground to your house !!!! that is what my problem was with the TVI !! this house was built in the late 60's and the ground was buried under a concreet pad , and someone sometime had cut the ground wire in two and after i done everything to ground my setup (i even ran a extra ground from the radio plugins) i still had TVI then i noticed my ground to the house was gone and after fixing it with 2 8 foot ground rods i have had no problems other than power lines !!! Hope this helps !!! Allagator !! |
Allagator
Intermediate Member Username: Allagator
Post Number: 485 Registered: 9-2002
| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 5:09 pm: |
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oh i forgot Pp1616 i run a M104C at 96 foot and a home brew Gatorod at 30 foot (ran short on coax !! HE HE ) 11 meter dipole !!! and i hope to get a Imax soon to set on the top of the M104 !!! |
Airplane1
Intermediate Member Username: Airplane1
Post Number: 197 Registered: 5-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 5:26 pm: |
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Pp1616, Go to your search engine on your computer and type in bury flex coax, it is same low loss coax as LMR 400 but flexable and cheaper then the Times LMR 400 flex coax. I`m getting some from Davis RF. Hope this helps |
Airplane1
Intermediate Member Username: Airplane1
Post Number: 198 Registered: 5-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 5:39 pm: |
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I have the maco v 5/8 and never had a problem with the TVI or any other and it was only 7ft to base of antenna for a long time and my other houses very close to me + I put about 300-400 watts out sometimes. I always hear of that with the imax antennas. Get a maco v and save time and money not having to add things to fix the problems. Just my opinion! |
Tech808
Moderator Username: Tech808
Post Number: 3899 Registered: 8-2002
| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 6:19 pm: |
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I am sorry but I just cannot see wasting the extra money for bury flex coax UNLESS you are going to have a run over 100' or more and are actually going to bury it. I have 4 runs from our CB & HAM antennas now with around 100 to 130' each and have never had any problems with using 213U Coax from Superior Insulated Wire company. (The same coax that Copper carries.) The cost difference has Never justified the extra expense for me to even waste the money for the bury flex. If you have everything RIGHT to start out with and DO NOT need to bury it or make runs over 100' or more, I just cannot see wasting the extra money that can be used elsewhere on other radio equipment. Whith the description that pp1616 says he has I personally can see no real reason to waste the extra money when RG213 / 213U will fit his needs. If you look at the pictures I have posted on my tower and antennas, I have a Power line going from one Pole less than 25' away and running to my pole in my yard LESS than 15' from my Tower and antennas and I have never had any problems when using 213U with the Beams or other antennas for CB or HAM equipment. If you have problems or a dirty station to start with you will still have them no matter what coax you use. In over 40+ years in the hobby and 30+ in the radio business I have found that 98% of the time when a person has problems the Coax is the last thing causing the problems. Just my personal experience. Lon |
Dale
Junior Member Username: Dale
Post Number: 35 Registered: 12-2002
| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 8:14 pm: |
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tech808 my radio is a prostar400 same as eaglesidewinder400 coppers use 2 have. radio isnt clipped no npc mod/super mod/super swing . it does 3-4watt amcarrier swings bout 12-15. ssb 15-18. my coax is lmr400 its used that might be a factor i never thought of that. imax is slighty under 36feet at base as well. no room 4 tower |
Drifter_8291
New member Username: Drifter_8291
Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 2:16 pm: |
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ok I have not had alot of antennas since I started in 1987. Back then I bought my first antenna from my uncle who was getting out of CB. The radio was a Cobra 1000 and the antenna was one he had in his garage for some years which had never been removed from it's box. It was one made by Radio Shack it was all aluminum ground plane and on the box it read 1 /64 wave..(that is not a typo for 1/2 wave) it actually read 1 / 64 wave. It was quite large as I remember and it performed really well. I wish today I could find another one as I would buy it in an instant, it easily outperformed this Antron I now have as well as a big stick I had. Anyone else on here ever had any experience on that antenna the 1 / 64 wave? |
Dx431
Advanced Member Username: Dx431
Post Number: 928 Registered: 2-2002
| Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 4:34 pm: |
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Drifter, I had one of the RS 1/64 (or 5/8) wave base ants. Was the first base ant I had back when I started in CBs in the mid 70's.It worked very well. |
Airplane1
Intermediate Member Username: Airplane1
Post Number: 210 Registered: 5-2004
| Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 11:06 am: |
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Hi Lon, I agree with you that the coax that copper sells is good for runs up to 100 ft.Save money if you can run that coax. I am going to use bury flex cause I am doing a 160 ft run from radio to antenna(it might be a little longer than that) and want low loss coax. the only reason I told Pp1616 to get bury flex is cause that he was looking to get low loss coax and looking at getting LMR400flex which is more expensive than bury flex but about the same loss and wanted to save him money on low loss coax. |
Mikefromms
Intermediate Member Username: Mikefromms
Post Number: 267 Registered: 6-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 11:48 am: |
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If I had a good beam and just wanted to talk local 15 20 miles off a omni, I think I'd put up a wire antenna. Maybe an inverted v. I believe it would do the job and use the beam for longer contacts. Of course, I'd probably end up getting an Imax. mikefromms |
Bruce
Senior Member Username: Bruce
Post Number: 1727 Registered: 9-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 2:49 pm: |
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a rombic is the way to go if you have lots of room. |
Kilowatt
Member Username: Kilowatt
Post Number: 81 Registered: 2-2004
| Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 3:14 am: |
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Man, I'd love to have room to put up a rhombic! When I was training at Fort Gordon, there was a big rhombic set up there. It was oriented toward the east, and you could hear just about anything that went on in the 8 Mc range in that direction. Most signals would just disappear when you switched to the other antennas.... |
Gonzo
Member Username: Gonzo
Post Number: 90 Registered: 9-2004
| Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 5:52 pm: |
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The best coax BTW is called Andrew Heliax, this has 1/2 to 1/4 the loss of the best RG-8 type of coax including LMR-400. It is expensive but if your going over 150 feet its worth it. If you want the VERY best. It comes in several versions, the smallest being .500 a little bigger than the .405 typical RG-8 stuff. There are PL-259 connectors made specifically for this coax, since it is larger. |
Bruce
Senior Member Username: Bruce
Post Number: 1733 Registered: 9-2003
| Posted on Friday, November 05, 2004 - 12:20 pm: |
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Heliax on CB? here at the jail we run lmr-400 on 460 mhz. Using that is about the same as using a 5 inch gun to kill a rabbit. |
Tech833
Moderator Username: Tech833
Post Number: 881 Registered: 8-2002
| Posted on Friday, November 05, 2004 - 3:25 pm: |
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Bruce, Not so. Heliax is for use by anyone who wants maximum performance from their radio. Don't forget, your coax does not just lose signal from your transmitter, it also loses signal from your antenna getting to your receiver. Also, don't forget that the superior shielding of Heliax will allow routing the cable past noise sources and isolating the noise from your radio. I use Heliax for just about everything. I can hear signals that other cannot. For UHF, anything under 50 feet would be fine with LMR-400. Anything over that, and 1/2 inch Heliax is the minimum. A great improvement will be realized by switching longer UHF runs to appropriate sized Heliax. The larger the Heliax diameter, the lower the RF losses, and higher the power handling capability too. |
Bruce
Senior Member Username: Bruce
Post Number: 1735 Registered: 9-2003
| Posted on Friday, November 05, 2004 - 7:48 pm: |
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833 At 27 mhz ? now ive run haliax on 440 and it does make a diffrence and ofcourse you lose both ways but at 27? good 400 class cable is under a db at 27. |