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Wolverine
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 3:09 am: | 
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What is the equivalent to 300 "Bird" watts, when using other rms meters like Dosy, Synchron, PDC, and Radio Shack meters? I'm asking because my co-worker has a ford pick-up truck, with a 102" whip on the right rear of the bed. He is running at 14 volts, using a 5 pill Pirate amp (1 2290x 4 2879's). He made a contact to florida, from California on channel 11, using CB AM mode. I measured his watts at 810 peak, using a Synchron meter. He insists that he is doing 300 true Bird watts. Who is right, who in the hell is "Bird", and what make his meters less enthusiastic than other meters??. Thanks in advance.
Wolverine. |
Ca346
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 8:33 pm: |
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Tech8541
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 9:52 pm: |
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you have 2 bird meters the 43 and the 43p(actually you have several birds but for this discussion these 2 are all we need). the 43 is rms and the 43p is peak.
as i have done many times in the past, i'm going to do some A$$uming here once again. i will assume that you are talking about the 43(rms), since you said "when using -OTHER- -RMS- meters like dosey..."
in that case, dosey, astatic, etc are not true rms meters or peak meters. they are somewhere between the 2. the dosey, astatic, etc will show carrier power in rms pretty accurately but peak power is only about 3/4 of what you really have. if the signal is really nasty, and the antenna poorly tuned, it will many times show more than the true peak power present.
with that said, the 43 shows true rms power. if you have a 300w carrier and then you modulate the radio to 100% the 43 will still show 300w. 100% modulation is a 4x increase in power. so you really are netting 1200w peak power. with the syncron you only have 3/4 of the true peak power(pep), which is 900w, very close to the 810w that you got. but, you are actually netting 1200w pep. once again the same peak power as the bird once the 'correction' formula has been used.
do you see what i am getting at?? both of you are right. it all depends on the meter you are using. it is like speed, 55mph is the same as 88kph. you have only measured it with different units.
as for who bird is, it is a company whoes wattmeters are the standard for rf power measurement for a long time now.
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away from the wattmeter lesson, both of you are actually wrong. there is no way that this amp can do 1200w pep. with a bird 43 he should be seeing about 150-200w, and you should be getting about 450-500w on the syncron. the readings you gave lead me to believe that he is running a very nasty amp. since i don't know the pirate amps, i don't realy know. what i do know well is the power outputs of the 2879's. with what i know about them, 1200wpep is impossible. and if he is using the 43p and he is only getting 300w pep from that amp, something is wrong with the meter or the amp or both. |
Bigbob
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 9:59 pm: |
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300???He should be doing 700-750 with that amp,I believe yours,810 peak sounds reasonable.a texas star 667v is a 750,1 2290 x 4 2879. |
Wolverine
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 2:54 am: |
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Thanks Tech 8541 for the info. There is nothing like a fresh infusion of knowledge. Welcome to the dance Tech 8541, or should I say, the forum.
Wolverine. |
Adshar64
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 3:17 pm: |
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1200w pep is possible on a 4 pill 2879 amp with 100w drive and circuitry beefup to 1000v silver micas from 500v rating and some resistor upgrades. Have one that has run for two years at that level. fan forced cooling is a must and 15v operation necessary. Can provide proof if you like. ie pictures of accurate w502 meter on pep scale on dummy load ssb test. |
Bullet
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 12:57 am: |
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to my recollection a 2879 is a 120 watts pep transister so as my man 8541 said 4 of those rascals aint going to produce 1200 pep.
dubble that to 8 - 2879's and ill go for it, 10 of them and ill say sure it will easy but not 4 pills.
8541,
the 502 is the struthers version of the "bird 43" rms meter. look up bird watt meters on ebay youll see one thier. ive got one here ive repainted from thier off yellow/cream to black to match my radios. ill send a pic if you cant find that one on ebay. the us military uses them as well as birds. nice meters. |
Adshar64
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 10:14 pm: |
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Bigbob
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 9:37 am: |
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Rfparts says the 2879 is 120 watts and ratings are typicaly 50% higher for SSB,so that would put it at 180 watts so 4x180=720,far from 1200 watts but think about it,you would have to increase to 1440 watts for the listener to hear a real differance,3db,1/2 s-unit.So let that be a lesson to you,if you really want to blast the he ll out of your neighbor don't settle for one of those piddling little 5 pill amps get a 16 or 32 pill,go for a twelve s-unit increase right away,then people will say YOU DA MAN,or some other thing.I mean you gotta double your output everytime you upgrade just to keep up with the Jones' or it means nothing.Bigbob |
Peddler
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 12:15 pm: |
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I would much rather use and listen to a station that is loud and clear instead of over-powered and garbled. Be it a two pill or a 32 pill, if it isn't clear, just what have you done? |
Wolverine
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 6:08 am: |
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After talking to various techs, and checking out the bird website, I see that unless you have at least $500 bucks, like changing power slugs, or running serious power (at least 800 watts and above), a bird meter is a must. This meter is basically used to determine "True RMS Power", or Bird Watts, as the catch phrase goes. This appears to be a very complex, but sophisticated meter. 450 to 500 watts is pretty much my self-imposed ceiling, and I can talk all over the United States. Question: How many of you forum members actually own and use a Bird 43 or 43P meter? Also, for those of us who use the typical power meters out on the market, is the old folk tale true that: Rms bird watts is 1/2 of the watts read by the other rms or swing meters out on the market?? Example: 1000 watts typical, is really 500 bird watts?. Or, here's another one. 1600 rms typical= 800 bird watts?. Can any one out there verify this?. Thanks in advance.
Wolverine. |
Wolverine
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 4:56 am: |
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Okay, I'll ask one more time, just in case some of you had to go to the "John". Will Doubling "Bird Watts" give you the inflated readings typical of non-bird meters, using the examples I've given in the above prior post?? I'm trying to learn "Bird-ese", so when someone comes back to me from "DX", stating that he's on a vertical beam with 50 bird watts, then I can understand and speak the bird language. If this question is a stupid one, just humor me. Thanks.
Wolverine. |
Scrapiron63
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 11:05 am: |
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Wolverine, if a dosy or other meter is properly calibrated, the keyup watts on them shouldn't be much different than a Bird meter. The swing or pep reading is the difference, Bird meters don't show near as much swing as the dosy and other pep meters. I would take those "bird watts" reports with a grain of salt, i've heard guys talking about their Bird watts that I know have never seen a Bird meter. "Bird-ese" is used trying to convince others what a bada** station they have. Ask them what kinda Bird meter they have, and what slug they're using, you probably want get a comeback. |
Wolverine
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 5:21 pm: |
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Thank You Scrapiron63. Why do people always have to do a, "I've got the best equipment available, which makes me the top gun or guru" (type of statement). I guess it's like the "Dress to impress" phenomenon. I'm going to just continue to speak synchron-ese and dosy-ese, my native languages. Thanks again.
Wolverine. |
Bigbob
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 9:28 pm: |
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Bird watts,first you go outside and count how many dead birds there are at the base of your antenna,then divide by two that's your "bird watts".Bigbob,HAHAHAHAHA. |
226akamark
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 11:04 pm: |
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Oh yeah, Forgot to mention the bird was on my antenna like a shiskibob....
I didn't fried it on there.... (On purpose anyway.)
226 out. |
226akamark
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 10:52 pm: |
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Talkin' about birds. I just wondered if anyone ever had a bird stuck on their beam?. I had a Moonraker 4 about 10 or 12 years ago at my old home QTH, and I looked up one day to find a blackbird forked onto my driven element. Funniest thing I ever seen. Needless to say, I think he got fried. I know it's of the subject, but (Bird & Watts) was a factor.
(My better half didn't see the humor)
73's, 226 / Mark |
Crafter
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 1:34 pm: |
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Mine doesnt either, says Im harming the enviroment to told her to do a impact study and let me know what she finds out. |
Johnhenre
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 4:05 pm: |
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JUST A THOUGHT? I AND MY FRIEND ARE FAR FROM BEING TECH'S BUT AS FAR AS TESTING AMP.S USEING METERS,HQ.RADIO SHACK,DOSY.BIRD METER.AND SAME ANTENNA TO CHECK OUT AMP,S THAT SAY THERE OUTPUT IS WE HAVE FOUND OUT THAT (NONE)LIVES UP TO THERE ADVERTISING,(DAVE MADE AMPS)WHICH WE HAVE TESTED BUT DON'T OWN ONE! BUT ALL AMPS THAT WE HAVE MODIFIED AS IN GENERAL WILL PRODUCE AROUND 150watts (CLEAN,and CLEAR)IT POSSIBLE THAT AS WOLVERRINE IS QUESTIONABLE, BUT UNTILL YOU EXPERIMINT AND SMOKE A FEW AMPS YOU CAN WILL BE ABLE UNDER STAND BIRDS, WATT METERS,THE TRUTH IS AFTER YOU MODIFIED AN AMP AND TESTED IT ON THE SAME METER YOU USED ON THE AMP. BEFORE ANY THING WAS DONE TO IT AND THE WATTS WHEN YOU ARE DONE WITH IT. YOU WILL SEE THE DIFFERENTS AS FAR AS PILLS WHAT CAME WITH THE UNIT IS JUST FINE,LEAVE THEM BE UNLESS THEY DON'T MATCH.AS FAR AS METERS MOST DOSY'S DON'T LIE UNLESS TAMPERED WITH. .02 CENT |
Wolverine
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 5:54 am: |
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AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Good one, Bigbob! |
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