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Ozzy
New member
Username: Ozzy
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2011
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 6:23 pm: | 
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I run an inverted V and it consistantly out does the antron. The V can handle more power, reaches further on local communications, and is omnidirectional, regardless of what you might read on here. ALWAYS out performs the junktron on skip conditions. The antron is GARBAGE! Check it out on youtube where one is disected, you will NEVER buy one. Mine is going to be given away to a friend who wants to get into radio, but will also be replacing it with a V soon. I run a 959 as a base, Pride dx base amp doing 500 watts, inverted V with the apex at 25 ft. Not worried about height, as I live on a ridge at 7,000 ft elevation. The antenna is on a wooden teepee lift pole, my power supply for the radio is two wheel chair gell cell deep cycle batteries. I am known as 599 on 38lsb, and am the only person in town on the radio. I live in WY. |
Starface
Senior Member
Username: Starface
Post Number: 3023
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2011 - 1:47 am: |
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do you run the ham bands too? |
Charliebrown
Intermediate Member
Username: Charliebrown
Post Number: 194
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2011 - 6:49 am: |
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OZZY, HOW IS YOUR SWR ACROSS THE BAND'S? HOW BIG IS YOUR CABLE FOR YOU INVERTED V? IS IT 14 OR 12 OR 10 GAUGE. EVERY PERSON DOES THING'S DIFFERENTLY AND WITH DIFFERENT RESULT'S IS THE REASON I HAD ASK. I AM GLAD TO SEE THIS IS WORKING SO WELL FOR YOU. IF YOU HOOK A CHARGER TO THE BATTERY WHILE IN USE IT WILL HELP YOU DO BETTER. THE BATTERY WILL ACT AS A FILTER AND YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY HUMM. OF COURSE ALWAYS PUT THE CHARGER CABLE ON THE BATTERY FIRST AND THEN YOU RADIO POWER LEAD NEXT. THIS HAD WORKED FOR ME IN THE PAST BEFORE I HAD A POWER SUPPLY. |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1972
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2011 - 10:21 am: |
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One cannot responsibly find fact in those statements without knowing why you have the results you do.
First of all, for DX, the inverted V might be better in some instances, especially for E-layer skip, because the V has a much higher takeoff angle than the Antron 99 vertical. The Antron 99 has a lower takeoff angle, much better for groundwave (local) communications and most F-layer skip. You mentioned the apex of your V is at 25 feet. That's fairly close to 3/4 wave, and would certainly have a higher takeoff angle than a 1/2 wave vertical.
Second, an inverted V is NOT omnidirectional. It is close, say within 6 dB in some cases, but not truly omni. You can download EZNec for free and model one for yourself if you do not believe. That would also show you the takeoff angles vs. a half wave vertical.
Third, the Antron 99 is not "garbage". In fact, it is a pretty good antenna. It's just a 1/2 wave vertical inside a fiberglass shell. The matching scheme makes it fairly broad-banded, much more so than an inverted V, even if fed with a 1:1 balun.
I have an inverted V here as part of my station. It is tuned to 10m band with the apex at 1/2 wave above ground and ground radials. It works well for short DX. However, I also have an Antron 99 here on a pole with feedpoint at 16 feet above ground and radials, and sometimes the A99 is better on long skip (F-layer). Although most of the skip conditions lately have been the spring Es, so the high takeoff angle is better right now. Wait a few more months when the springtime Es are gone and all we have is F layer openings, and the A99 will be more useful than the inverted V.
Regards,
Tech 833
Your radio 'Mythbuster' since 1998
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Sitm
Intermediate Member
Username: Sitm
Post Number: 431
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2011 - 10:42 am: |
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I am shocked at the statements. The 99 is the most widely used antenna for 11 meter that I am aware of. It is easy to put up and is pretty much no nonsense. I really think that [the] comments have holes in them.
I am also a licensed amateur radio operator and think that the antron 99 is a very good antenna for what it is designed for. I don't own one, but have read technical reviews and actual field test on this very site as well as on several other sites. |
Ozzy
New member
Username: Ozzy
Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2011
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2011 - 9:02 pm: |
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Google antron 99 exposed, it is a lossy ill built hunk of junk. My inverted V beats it EVERY time, local ground wave or DX. My V is built from a cut down G5RV, fed with RG-8. The SWR is 1.5 at 26.515, resonant at 27.525 and 1.2 at 27.855. Just because the antron is "the most widely used" does not make it any better, that just means there are allot of misinformed people out on the airwaves. The inverted V is equal in performance to a half wave worked against the ground, and IS omnidirectional, in the proper setting, which I have. I have been DXing since 1965, and was a radio operator in the Air Force for more than 20 years.[Currently retired.} I am just tired of the antron being touted as being so good, when in fact, it just is not. Like I said above, google antron 99 exposed. Then come back and say how good it is. It was junk before, and it is junk now. AND THE MACO 5/8 ISN`T MUCH BETTER! Anything with a coil in it is inherently lossy. Don`t believe it? Check it out on google. In the meantime, I`ll keep making contacts into Europe and Australia with my V. Listen on the band, you will definitely hear me. 73. |
Ozzy
New member
Username: Ozzy
Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2011
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2011 - 9:14 pm: |
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I have a gell-cell battery maintainer on the two gell cell batteries. They are Interstate 60 amp hour, weigh 78 pounds each, and last for a very long time before the automatic charger kicks on. I can pull 120 amps for 20 hours and have only 1.5 volt drop in output. The batteries are maintained at 13.5-13.8 volts. The power goes out alot up here in the winter, and they are my backup. |
Ozzy
New member
Username: Ozzy
Post Number: 4
Registered: 5-2011
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2011 - 10:42 pm: |
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The V is installed over a 36 ft. aluminum trailer, the apex is right around 1/2 wave above it. The ends are 1/4 wave off the roof. The antron is mounted on the oposite side in the middle, the base is 1/4 wave off the roof. Antenna modeling programs show various lobes in all directions with the V, and a smoother "donut" patern with the antron. |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1975
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2011 - 1:40 am: |
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"Google antron 99 exposed, it is a lossy ill built hunk of junk."
Ozzy, who do you think wrote the Antron 99 EXPOSED article?
As the author of that investigative piece, I can tell you that the A99 is not "junk". Thank you for referencing my work.
An inverted V is not omnidirectional. There is nothing you can do to make an inverted V absolutely omni. Well.. Unless you straighten it out and hang it vertically. An inverted V does not have gain over a horizontal dipole in free space. Location and environment make a difference.
There is a fraction of a dB of loss in the A99 feed system. It is not enough to worry about. Coils in an antenna used for phasing are not the same as for loading.
Your radio 'Mythbuster' since 1998
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Ozzy
New member
Username: Ozzy
Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2011
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2011 - 12:25 am: |
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Tech833, you are the person who authored "antron 99 exposed." Enough said. |
Ozzy
New member
Username: Ozzy
Post Number: 6
Registered: 5-2011
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2011 - 11:35 pm: |
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Im not knocking anyone for using the antron, it is easy to set up and use. I just think it is overated a good bit. I used to take a big stick and mount it on a short mast and C- clamp it in the bed of my pick-up. From the top of a mountain, it was alot of fun, as you can imagine. The bleed sticks do have thier uses. |
Tech237
Moderator
Username: Tech237
Post Number: 1436
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2011 - 10:57 am: |
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Ozzy, Funnily enough my old A-99 used to beat my Inverted-V, and my 3 leg collinear around 90% of the time. The A-99 was mounted 4ft above ground and not quite vertical (abt 5 degree slope) as was mounted on an old satellite dish mount. The Inverted V had its apex at 30ft and the ends at about 10ft. The colinear was mounted at 30 and at right-angles to the V.
LOcation, location, location - it will always make one antenna work better than another one, while using the same two antenna's similar mounted at a different location can completely reverse the situation. This is why I always have a chuckle at posts that blythely ask What antenna is the best.
Tech237
N7AUS
God only made some many perfect head, on the rest he put hair.
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Ozzy
New member
Username: Ozzy
Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2011
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2011 - 3:06 pm: |
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And, 833, in your article about the antron, you show how the workmanship of the antron is VERY poor, i.e. "blob" soldering, and even un-soldered center conductor of the coax in the non-radiating bottom section, and state how a simple Ringo 1/2 wave outdoes the 99. Why the change of heart, except for pure arguments sake? That and the fact of the false claims made by the manufacturer make it junk in my book. If it was so good, then they would`nt have to lie about it. |
Ozzy
New member
Username: Ozzy
Post Number: 9
Registered: 5-2011
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2011 - 2:04 am: |
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Tech 237, I believe that. Ive had the V up for about a year, and didn`t have much chance to really use it untill this spring. When propagation returned, I thought I`d try an Antron. After all, it would be an improvement , or so I thought. When there was a marked descrepency in performance, you can imagine the disapointment. Then stumbling across 833`s article tore it for me. It works, just not as well in MY situation. That, and the fact that the wind here is bad alot, and I can tell it will get buggywhipped to pieces before to long. This summer, I`ll take it to Elk Mountain which is over 12,000 feet high, or up on the Snowies and see if it will reach out and touch someone. Oh, and the BEST antena? That would be the one that works the best for YOU. Hihi.73 |
Dale
Senior Member
Username: Dale
Post Number: 1709
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2011 - 10:45 am: |
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like u said in a earlier post mount it on a short mast. you,ll be surprised on a hill top
especially out in the open no trees or buildings
also makes a great camping antenna for easy up and down
dale/a.k.a.hotrod
cef426
cvc#64
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Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1978
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2011 - 11:39 am: |
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"the workmanship of the antron is VERY poor, i.e. "blob" soldering, and even un-soldered center conductor of the coax in the non-radiating bottom section, and state how a simple Ringo 1/2 wave outdoes the 99"
Yes, the early Antron 99's had workmanship issues. I was informed shortly after my article was first published nearly 10 years ago that the issues were corrected.
Yes, a Ringo will slightly outperform an Antron 99. No change of heart at all. The tradeoff for the fraction of a dB in performance is that the A99 is much easier to assemble and tune, and it has better bandwidth than the Ringo. The Ringo will handle more power (for the licensed hams) and will stand up to the elements better.
One last time- The Antron 99 is not junk. It is a useful antenna for some people. Perhaps you simply are not one of them.
I have several antenna here on my hilltop QTH for all different bands, and for a 10/15m vertical, I chose an Antron 99. I can buy or build any antenna I want, any time. Yet, I chose an A99. It can't be all that bad, now can it? With about 16 inches cut off the top, it resonated right in the middle of the 10m band, and is under 1.5 on 15m. It works well and takes the winds on this hill well. A Ringo might work a little better on 10m, but would not have enough bandwidth to cover the whole band nor would it cover 12 or 15m without a tuner needed.
Your radio 'Mythbuster' since 1998
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Tech237
Moderator
Username: Tech237
Post Number: 1439
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2011 - 10:40 am: |
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I didnt mention it in order to not confuse people more, but like Tech-833, my A-99 ran 15-11 with an SWR less tha n 1.8 across that range.
Lets see in the 6month it was mounted as described above at Baker City, I worked/confirmed 80 countries and 49 states (could not get Idaho) on 10m, 50 coutries and 25 states on 12m, 23 countries 18 states on 17m, and 57 countries - 45 states on 15m. NO records for what I worked on 11m as I didnt keep a log.
Tech237
N7AUS
God only made some many perfect head, on the rest he put hair.
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Assaulter
Member
Username: Assaulter
Post Number: 55
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2011 - 12:43 pm: |
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Using my antenna tuner, if I can hear someone I can work them on ssb on 10,12,15, and 17 meters. Hell, it even works on 20 meters about 70% of the time.
On top of that I've actually made a few contacts on 40 meters with it on PSK-31!!!!! All stateside, but still, that's pretty damned amazing for a 18 foot tall, 11 meter vertical. |
Ozzy
Junior Member
Username: Ozzy
Post Number: 10
Registered: 5-2011
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 1:05 am: |
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Well, I`ve had both antennas in all posible positions, places, and configurations. The results are that the inverted V wins hands down. A 2 s-unit difference on the recieved long distance transmissions from my base, about the same on my recieve. Argue, carp, rationalize all you want, the results speak for themselves. The V is MUCH more robust in material, and handles alot more power. The antron bleeds over the neighbor`s phone, the V does not. As far as an antenna tuner goes, you are just ••••••• in the wind. I can tune up a coffee can on a bird perch in a hole in the ground and make contacts on it with a tuner, but that does NOT make it a good antenna. Mabe you are happy with that level of performance, but I like a higher level of performance. I suspect that your experience is still lacking due to time in the hobby, or perhaps it doesn`t take much to please you. I have higher expectations, however. One last time- The antron is junk when compared to the V. This is why the military does`nt use it, prefering instead wire antennas for fixed work. And that is good enough for me. Incidently, I recently made a solid contact into Jakarta with the V, he was having a hard time copying me on the Antron. If you are happy with the Antron, good for you. Just don`t be suprised when I step on you with my V because I can`t hear you. |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1992
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 11:12 am: |
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Again? Really???
I'm really happy that you found an antenna that works well for you.
A few corrections-
1. The military does use wire antennas, but they do not use 1/2 wave monoband inverted V's, like yours. The wire antennas used by military installations are usually broadband folded dipoles, rhombics, V-beams, log periodics, and fan dipoles. How do I know? Who do you think designs, builds, and installs them? You're talking to him. Or, at least one of "them".
2. A monoband inverted V does not perform over a wide bandwidth, does not have low or variable takeoff angle, or the receive characteristics required for military wide-band use. In fact, the monoband inverted V is very substandard. It's what is known as a 'compromise antenna'.
If you were to acquire and install a "military" B&W broadband folded dipole, or a log periodic , you might come on here calling your inverted V "junk" with as much vigor as you have for calling the A99 "junk". Which, by the way, it is not.
You may not be aware of this, but you can feed an inverted V 1/2 wave dipole at the end, not just at the center. In fact, if you were to feed it at the end and straighten it, you would have an A99 on its side. So, how would moving the feedpoint to the center and bending it in the middle make 2 S-units improvement over the end fed, unbent version? I'm looking forward to an expert's explanation. Simply stating "the results speak for themselves" isn't an explanation, it is a cop out.
Have you ever tried an Imax 2000? Wonder what you think of that antenna? Someone who has "higher expectations" must have used several different antennas over their extensive time in the hobby, so you must have some input on those other antenna types. As you said, "results speak for themselves". Someone making such lofty claims surely cannot have only used 2 antennas over such a vast experience gathering hobby 'career'.
Regards,
833
Your radio 'Mythbuster' since 1998
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Sitm
Intermediate Member
Username: Sitm
Post Number: 446
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 9:34 am: |
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I have recently made contacts on 10 meter to New Zealand, Italy, Brazil, Spain, Turkey Island, Montego Bay, Antigua Island and 26 of the CONUS states. All on the 99s larger brother the Imax. I am not near my log but could go on and on all day. Quite a few of these contact were made with 50 watts pep with 5/9 reports. Here is what I think happens in this hobby, there are some curmudgeons in this hobby that are not top dog in the amateur radio arena so they happen themselves down to a citizen band radio forum, not because they like cb, but because they are curmudgeons and want to rail on someone and appear to be a big fish. To all of you who are in this hobby and also in amateur radio, treat the curmudgeons of this hobby as you would mud on your shoe, scrap it off on a sharp rock and move on because anything they have will be better that what you have, anything you think will not be as accurate as what they thought. Remeber when you were eight and you and your friend use to argued about Ford and Chevy. Some people haven't moved on from that maturity level. I have been in the hobby for seven years, was a licensed operator in the military for eight years as a radio operator, they have a contract with Mosely by the way. Back to the curmudgeons of this hobby, you are always going to see them somewhere drizzling into the wind completely oblivious that it is spraying back into their face. Enjoy the hobby. |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1993
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 11:15 am: |
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Ford!!
Your radio 'Mythbuster' since 1998
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Tech237
Moderator
Username: Tech237
Post Number: 1451
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 11:46 am: |
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BTW Ozzy - ALl my contacts on th A-99 were made NOT using any tuner at, just a carefully tuned antenna.
Tech237
N7AUS
God only made some many perfect head, on the rest he put hair.
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Jon666
Intermediate Member
Username: Jon666
Post Number: 419
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 6:05 pm: |
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i have a inverted it works very well.
what don't kill you makes you stronger
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Ozzy
Junior Member
Username: Ozzy
Post Number: 11
Registered: 5-2011
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2011 - 1:15 am: |
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Yes, mine, too. The Antron SHOULD be better, though. It is nuts trying to figure this out. There is nothing "wrong" with it, it just doesn`t work as good. One thing may be that the take off angle is too low, and most of the signal is hitting the peaks and ridges a few miles from here. I can`t get a local check, there isn`t anyone else around here except a walkie-talkie a half mile away. |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1994
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2011 - 11:50 am: |
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The Antron won't be better on E-layer skip, the higher takeoff inverted V would certainly be better 99% of the time.
Lately, we have been experiencing strong E-layer conditions. The F2 hasn't kicked in yet. A good way to tell is keep an eye on the DX Summit. Watch the 10m band loggings and you can see how far and where contacts are being made. Es are all that have been on the board.
When the Es die out, as they do every year, unless the F layer begins to conduct, there won't be any skip conditions as high as 27 MHz. until the fall. Once the F-layer wakes up, then long path conditions will exist, and your inverted V won't be your "cat's meow" antenna any more.
Your radio 'Mythbuster' since 1998
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