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Mikeytows
New member
Username: Mikeytows
Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 5:49 pm: | 
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what's the best sounding (TX audio) general coverage radio on A.M.,as we are all aware that most are NOT loud like cb's...and yes WITH power mic's.If anyone thinks they know of a general coverage HF radio that they think is loud with the stock microphone i'd like to have a laugh too. |
Bulldog369
Intermediate Member
Username: Bulldog369
Post Number: 244
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 8:17 pm: |
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TS-440 sat |
Bamacj
New member
Username: Bamacj
Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 9:06 pm: |
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I used my kenwood 850 and cheated on the audio. It was the recieve filters I had more trouble with. The widdest my 850 will go is 12khz fine for wide ssb but to narrow for loud am. A lower modulated am signal was ok. What I did on am was to set the rig at around 10watts with the audio gane very low"around setting 3" Then I used a jb 150 to bump up the audio. Look for a radio with variable filters to around 24khz for am.
I ended up useing a uniden hr 2510 for 11, and my 850 for all my ssb stuff. |
Mikeytows
New member
Username: Mikeytows
Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 10:15 pm: |
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anybody else know of a loud HF rig on A.M.,or maybee one that can be modified to crank like a cb? I heard that the icom IC706 MKIIG has very loud audio.can anyone back that up? |
Stickshift
Intermediate Member
Username: Stickshift
Post Number: 180
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 1:23 am: |
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I get good audio reports on AM with my 706 mkiig. I use it on AM a couple of times a week on 6 and 2 meters with some locals. Also my ft-840 does a good job on AM and have heard several others that do as well. It just takes a bit of patients to set the rig up properly for transmiting on AM. The key to setting proper modulation on high end gear is to use the ALC meter on the rig rather than using a wattmeter or modulation meter. The manual provided with the rig will go more into detail.
hope this helps |
Pig040
Advanced Member
Username: Pig040
Post Number: 637
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 11:16 am: |
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My Kenwood 850 kicks ****. It dks 30, swings 100, I use a non-power Heil mic on it, and get modulation at 80 percent. And with all the filters, you can get rid of some of the noise. This has been a great all round radio for me.
Rich |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 12:43 pm: |
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Mikeytows - If you primarily use AM you're better off with a CB. There aren't any HF rigs today that have very loud AM audio like most CBs do without some careful adjustment and judicious use of the microphone gain and speech processor. There are a few reasons for that:
-HF rigs are low level modulated rigs built around SSB vs. AM CBs which are high level modulated.
-The audio chain is very clean with little or no compression. All CBs have a fair amount of compression built in so they sound loud.
-The carrier level needs to be adjusted so the rig can reach 100% modulation on peaks. CBs have that adjustment alreay made so you can just hit the key and chat.
You can get "very loud audio" by doing a few things:
-Adjust the carrier to no more than 1/4 the maximum PEP wattage rating. That'll allow the rig to hit 100% modualtion peaks. I try to keep it a bit lower so the signal sounds better.
-Use the speech processor when you want to sound loud. Most rigs have a compression type processor that will raise the average modulation level and make your signal sound louder. Some are adjustable, but those that aren't can be controlled by adjusting the microphone input level.
-Adjust the microphone input level by carefully watching the ALC function of the meter. The ALC function shows the activity of the limiter circuit. Ideally you would never see the needle move even on peaks. That would mean that your signal would have the widest dynamic range and would sound most natural. You can actually get a small amount of compression by keeping the level high enough so the ALC is always active, but if you've got a speech processor it's better to use the processor because the circuit is more agressive and intended to compress speech rather than just act as a limiter. It's important when you use the processor to adjust the mic gain with it on. In some rigs there is no level difference with the processor on or off, in some there is a great deal of difference.
BTW - The stock mic sounds great on Kenwoods in my experience. Whenever I ask for a report I get nothing but compliments about it's audio. I often use it when I want to stand rather than sit and while folks can tell I've changed mics, they don't know it's the stock mic. |
Af579
Junior Member
Username: Af579
Post Number: 24
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 1:03 pm: |
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Yaesu ft-990 sounds loud and proud on AM tx |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 1:14 pm: |
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Bamacj - 12KHz is too narrow for AM? I believe the transmit spec for AM on most HF rigs is a filter that is +/- 3KHz at -6dB. A murata "H" series or the equivalent. The spec for SSB is around 3KHz total bandwidth and most transmit filters are +/- 1.8KHz at -6dB.
If someone sounds like they're being cut off with a 12KHz filter it's because they are overmodulating. They've probably cut or improperly adjusted the limiter. Your radio has nice steep filters in it. That's a good thing - not bad.
I use a 2.4 KHz filter for SSB so I don't hear nearby signals and I don't think I would want to live without it. |
Bruce
Senior Member
Username: Bruce
Post Number: 2088
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 2:15 pm: |
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LOGIC ...... percent CB'ers on AM 50% or more,
HAMS 10% or less .......
THE RADIO is built for the market which is 90+% SSB or cw.
SO AM isn't much of a deal ......
( Buy a nice set from copper ..... a shameless plug ) |
Mikeytows
New member
Username: Mikeytows
Post Number: 3
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 3:31 pm: |
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i totally realize that logic but being a cb'er and a hamster it is frustrating spending big money on real deal radio and the audio is not half as loud as a $60 cb with the limiter clipped and a power mic. i ordered a 257 yesterday from you  i'm sure i'll like it but let's not end this thread here,anyone else got 2 cents?
by the way thanks to the other guy's with the technical info. |
Bamacj
New member
Username: Bamacj
Post Number: 5
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 9:05 pm: |
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Racer X.... I said its too narrow for a LOUD am signal. "try It" If the am your listening too is not very loud, 12khz will do fine. But how many 11 meter station you know that run 50% modulation?. I am not complaining about my filters. "I love my 850" I was just telling the guy the downfall of trying to run a ham rig on 11 meter am.
Mikeytows. If its a loud radio you want "main goal" Stick with an export or cb radio. You will probably not be happy with a ham rig on am "11 meters" |
Bruce
Senior Member
Username: Bruce
Post Number: 2092
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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Mike you 'll love the 257 i use the heck out of my htx-10's on 10 meters ( same radio ) |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 10:43 pm: |
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Bamacj - I guess I should ask what you mean by a loud AM signal then, because to the best of my knowledge AM signals at 100% modualation should be about 8 KHz in bandwidth unless something has been altered.
I can listen to 11m on my TS450 and switch between the 6KHz and 12KHz filters and tell who has a clipped limiter and who doesn't because the audio doesn't change much from the two positions when the limiter isn't clipped. There is also a meter function that shows dB of signal and when the level goes over the 0 level I pretty much know that they're overmodualating.
I don't consider the good filtering in an HF rig to be a downfall, I consider it to be nothing but beneficial. It's interesting to watch who's got a radio that operates within spec and who doesn't. |
Mikefromms
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikefromms
Post Number: 367
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 7:18 am: |
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It is a headache to get good am performance out of an 850. I'm in that delimna now. But it is a kickbutt sideband and ham rig.
mikefromms |
Bamacj
New member
Username: Bamacj
Post Number: 6
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 9:03 am: |
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Racer, I am just showing how my 850 reacts to highly modulated am signals. I have to go to my wide 12khz filter and then add some attenuator to clean it up.Your radio could be totaly different.On mine if I try to use 6khz or my next narrow filter, most am signals get very fuzzy.Again it could be the 850.
A cb or export radio will do a better jod on 11 meter am. I dont care if the other guy has modified his equipment, thats his buisness. Obviously if I am on 11 with an 850 I am not operating as I should.
Maby someone will get some good out of us going back and forth. |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 2:04 pm: |
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Bamacj - Do you have the same trouble when listening to AM broadcast band stations on your TS850? They use the same bandwidth a CB or other AM transceiver should be using, and they usually have really "loud," "highly modulated" signals. I use AM BCB stations as my frame of reference for a good and loud AM signal. They are engineered to be very loud but clean.
I have an AM BCB station antenna array less than two miles from my home and I get about an S9 +10dB signal without the attenuator on my TS450. I'm using a 10m dipole rather than a long wire so the antenna isn't ideal, but I can receive stations more than 60 miles away during the day so it's working pretty well.
When I listen with the 6KHz filters AM BCB signals sound great. There isn't much of a difference in sound when switching between the 12KHz and 6KHz filters on 455KHz or between 6KHz and "thru" on 8.83 MHz. I lose the high pitched man made noise, but nothing from voice and very little from music. I actually prefer how it sounds with the filters at 6KHz because it's easier to listen for long periods of time.
Interestingly, when watching the audio scale on the meter I rarely see it go above 0, and when it does it's only one segment. Conversely, it rarely drops more than one segment below 0 - that's some seriously processed audio.
I hope someone might get something out of our discussion too, and I hope you're enjoying it as much as I am. |
Mikeytows
New member
Username: Mikeytows
Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 3:54 pm: |
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very interesting and informative but lets not stop the voting on what ham rig is the loudest with whatever combination of settings or mic's. btw how's that alinco dx-70's audio? |
Chainsawiowa
New member
Username: Chainsawiowa
Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 6:18 pm: |
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No HF rigs wiil sound great or "LOUD" on AM ! |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 7:13 pm: |
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Mikeytows - There is no "loudest" HF rig just as there is no "loudest" CB. You can make them all sound good by adjusting them correctly so they can reach 100% modulation on AM. Switching on the speech processor will make you "loud" if that's how you want to sound.
Keep in mind thast being loud doesn't necessarily mean you'll be able to communicate effectively. Many people believe that a wider dynamic range is more effective for communication and that's where HF rigs excel. That's the argument the Hi-Fi SSB guys use to justify using bandwidths of 6KHz and more so they can have increased dynamic range while using a very efficient mode.
There is no magical combination of microphone and radio. If you know what you're doing you can use any microphone with any radio and make it sound good. It's mostly about matching the ouput level of the microphone to the input level of the radio. Impedance mismatches will change the audio quality, but there are ways and devices to deal with that too.
It's more about how your voice interacts with the microphone. A high cut microphone sounds poor with a high pitched voice, and a low cut microphone sounds bad with a bassy voice. Listen to your signal on another radio as you transmit into a dummy load, or better yet - tape it. That'll let you really listen to how you sound on the air. You can try several mics and various settings, compare the sound and decide which you like most. Then you'll be certain about how you sound on the air. |
Radioman123
New member
Username: Radioman123
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 8:17 pm: |
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The DX 70 I had wasn't too bad with the processor off. The reports I got was it was "clear" but not overdone. |
Bruce
Senior Member
Username: Bruce
Post Number: 2098
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 12:15 pm: |
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I have run (2) dx-70 a ft-840 a ft-100 on am they work just fine. AM is NOT a big deal on ham radio and HAM radios are not set up to do REALY good AM. Now a old HEATH DX-100 now THATS a AM transmitter! |
Rover
Member
Username: Rover
Post Number: 70
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 5:09 pm: |
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That's true, but some Ham transceivers do a respectable job if set up right. I suspect that some CB operators, accustomed to the "treetop tall, an' yer blowin' smoke, pedal to the metal", believe the only way to run a transmitter is everything over to the right, wide-open audio". And if they don't get it, the radio is "bad". Of course, there are some ham transceivers in which AM IS de-emphasized. But, again, some of them deliver pretty good results on AM. I run my 706 MKIIG's on AM, and get FB results.
73
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Patzerozero
Intermediate Member
Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 355
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 11:49 pm: |
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i use an older ic735, and many of those'in the know' question whether it's a ham rig or a cb i'm using. it has that cb type audio i'm looking for-no,no, no, not muffled & overmodulated, but LOUD. a local ham has a 706mkIIG that i've heard on 6meters, AM is fairly decent there. definitely am in the market for one of those! had a couple weeks to use the alinco dx70th to see how i liked it. i didn't. the audio was horrendous on AM. every radio check i got told me to turn up my power mic...even on skip, running a few hundred watts, the skip that knows me werelike, what happened to your loud audio, double-zero? |
Legend
Member
Username: Legend
Post Number: 76
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 2:48 am: |
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Try a Kenwood TS-480SAT or TS-480HX. I just got one (the SAT model) and it sounds awesome on AM. I even use an Echomax 2000 with it, and it STILL sounds awesome on AM! I can even use the processor FULL TIME, on SSB or AM.
Now, keep in mind that you must set everything up to sound right. Right mic gain and processor settings. But, once I have it all set up right, I don't have to change a thing when going from SSB to AM. And it sounds nice and consistant on ALL power levels.
It's really an awesome radio, and I think it's the very best you can get for less than 1000 bucks.
My 2¢. |
Ww4q
New member
Username: Ww4q
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 8:48 am: |
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I get Hi-Level modulation with my Kenwood TS-940S.
I use a relay to bypass balanced modulator and re-rout to 1st RF stage.
Deadkey 25 watts swing to 200 watts.
You have to use MC-85 to control the peaks if you drive a amp.
You can not use stock mic. |
