| Author |
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RCI2990
| | Posted on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 2:01 am: | 
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Ive heard a lot of guys talk about adding wires to the back doors of thier beams. I always have wondered if they are really any good? I once had a set of PDL-2s that had a set of extra wires and they worked pretty good until i wanted to put up my moonraker 4s again.. |
Taz
| | Posted on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 10:30 am: |
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Dont do it, it sucks.
No point in it at all. |
bruce
| | Posted on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 11:36 am: |
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2990 test under NBS standards showed little improvement " single ver mult reflectors " if somoeone gives it to you fine but i havent seen ant data showing any real advantage.... inspite of avertized clames. |
Antenna man
| | Posted on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 12:42 pm: |
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Taz or whoever you are...
Do YOU have any hard actual on the air exp, and field testing findings to back up that answer???
Whenever i test antennas i dont use some old textbook formulas or ARRL book i do everything -ON THE AIR- and write down my own findings.. |
Rosco
| | Posted on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 4:50 pm: |
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Seeking Advice : Anyone have personal experience in using Maco 103 ( 3 element ) beams, both vertical and horizontal, when talking long distance (skip)? I have used this beam talking vertical only, before a tornado took my house down. I need your advice, placing them horizontal ( flat), and then placing the Antron 99 above the flat side ? Will this setup cause SWR problems ? Will I still need a rotor to turn the beams flat side ? Does the beam gamma match need to face down, or up . ? Will be on a 32 ft. tower extended another 12 feet on pipe . Then the antron 99 another 8 feet to base of 99. Thanks for your advice, from experience. Rosco. |
Taz
| | Posted on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 6:06 pm: |
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I was really tired when I posted that and posted it under the wrong forum totally. Sorry for the mis-understanding.
(sounds like youngtimers while tired, bad idea)
And antenna man whoever you are....
I am a very common poster on this forum. If you havent seen my posts here then you not must be here alot or you just spy. Beceause I dont know who you are.
I do the same testings. I dont even own an arrl handbook nor have I ever been to their site. I do every thing by -FEILD PERFORMANCE- and thats how it works with me. Bottom line.
Mr. Rosco sir
Yes you can run duel rototators and switch between flat and verticle. No problem. I suggest that the antron is always above the gammas weather the beam is on the flat side or verticle. But thats what alot of people do is run duel rotator.
so you can do 1 of 2 things here with what you explained.
1. Run the beam on the flat side and run the antron ontop of it.
2. Run duel rotator and also have the antron above it but if your going to run duel rotator just use the beam, there would be no point in having the antron ontop of the beam if you run the beam verticle. Unless you hve somkind of interferemce or somthing where you need an omni too.
Just my 2 cents!
Taz |
RCI2990
| | Posted on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 11:43 pm: |
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Ok when i matched in my moonraker 4s i did not put it entirely together and match it. What i did was installed the drivers and the reflector and aimed the antenna up straight in the air and matched it.. The i assembeld the whole entire antenna as one unit and installed it on a 10' piece of pipe and checked the match again then later i installed it on my tower. I know some of you guys more than likely will say "thats not how you do it" but it worked for me and it has since late 1996 or so when i did this... |
bruce
| | Posted on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 12:20 am: |
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antenna man if that was directed a me yes i do i built several NBS yagis with single / mult reflectors and quaggys also all were on 2 meters all worked EXACTLY as NBS stated. i could measurs MABY 1 db better with 2 reflectors about what they found. I can say there was no problem with the "Wires" just little gain.
bruce |
Taz
| | Posted on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 12:43 am: |
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I will put mine on the mast pipe and stand it up in the back yard and put together on a latter. I didnt adjust any gammas when I took it down so I shouldnt have any problems. I am replacing a clamp on the mast though because it was cracked. You dont need to use aliminum nuts you can use galvanized too. But I like the aluminum cause it says thats what you should use. |
duck hunter
| | Posted on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 1:07 am: |
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1st things first,its not a dual reflector set up like you guys read about in your ARRL hand books.if it were id have to agree with you!
its not the same at all.and as long as you are on the wrong path youll never see it for what it really is when set up correctly. witch is ok for us that know cause we want you to stay DUCKS.
i could talk about before and after field strength readings from many angles around the beam
and on air performance to stations before and after and the added rejection of stations to your 6 o'clock. but im not. you wouldnt listen if i did.
and im glad,because as long as thats your mind set
every thing else being equal youll get lost in a pile up! were as i will talk! |
Bigbob
| | Posted on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 9:22 am: |
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Hey Taz try stainless they won't corrode,ever,and in 20yrs or so when have your own place they'll unscrew like they were brand new. |
bruce
| | Posted on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 11:05 am: |
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anyone know what duck hunter is talking about ??? |
Znut
| | Posted on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 11:34 am: |
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I enjoyed that post, Bigbob! "20yrs or so when..." Taz? LMAO
If I had a beam any extra rejection would be nice sometimes, regardless that there's no extra gain. In my town there are a few "super bowl" participants and as you all know they even bleed on all 40 from several hundred mi. away. Imagine from 5 mi.? Rejection kits, channel guard, what else? Enclose Chi-Town in aluminum screen? J/K! (No offense channel 6'ers, please)
If I had a bunch of wire and some yagi parts I think maybe, eh,..., a quad antenna with a yagi driven element? I've heard those full wave quad elements really help your ears with all that wire in the air (capture area or something?).
What do those quad reflectors (and directors as above) do for bandwidth? Does a rejection kit help here?
Znut |
bullet/151 southern Indiana
| | Posted on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 12:07 pm: |
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big bob,
thats a huge 10-4 on the ss hardware! that should come standard from the factory! i do this to every beam i rebuild either for myself or for friends. replace all nuts and bolts with ss.its so much nicer to work on years down the road. |
Maxwedge2
| | Posted on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 12:45 pm: |
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A few years ago, an old Ham friend of mine experimented with a Wilson Shooting Star 8 element dual polarity 11 meter beam which is almost the same antenna as the Moon Raker 4. This guy has been building and playing with antenna's since the early 50's with a high degree of success. He added the multiple wire rejection kit to the back of the beam per instructions from the manufactuer and could never get the swr's down to a workable match no matter what he did. As far as signal rejection, it was no better than the single wire that came with the antenna. Even a call to the antenna manufactuer didn't offer any solution and was told by one of their engineers and designers that they would have done that at the factory had they felt it would have given them the edge over their competition. Just a note, upon removal of the add on kit, the swr's came right down and were 1.5 or less. |
Taz
| | Posted on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 3:04 pm: |
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True bigbob but i hope to have my place in about 10-15 years. lol j/k |
RCI2990
| | Posted on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 4:21 pm: |
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Heres something i remember. You can agree or disagree with this post I dont care either way.. LOL There used to be an old timer were i live that ran a home made beam made from a shooting star using a jo gunn boom. He had a wire kit on the reflector that was just attached to the fiberglass elements themselves. It consisted of only 3 or 4 wires about 1' apart from each other and he had one of the tightest set of beams in the area up until he gave up on radios about 1996 or so.. They are still up to this day but no longer used. But i remeber he could turn them away from me (i lived about 2 miles away) and he dropped from a solid 9 to a 5 on audio strenth on SSB! |
bruce
| | Posted on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 8:21 pm: |
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sadly i have never seen where adding untunned wires did any good. the shorter wires do not act as a sheild of any kind NOW if the kit EXPANDED the wires outward the effect would be that of a flat plane reflector. Think about this if this REALY worked dont you think EVERY 6, 2 ,440 beam would have them STANDARD ha? I would be intrested in seeing results obtained on a range under controled conditions like the NBS did. See im a furm belever if it works on cb bet your butt every ham antenna will have it TOMORROW. |
duck hunter
| | Posted on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 9:24 pm: |
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2990,
looks like your old timer knows what im talking about,and how to do it. thats exactly how it should act.
my vswr is 1.18:1 on ch20 for those who say it will mess up your vswr. if done properly it wont affect it much at all and you should be able to get a good match or somethings not right.
oh.. i mean, yah those things (rejection kits)are a good way to screw up a good set of beams man. i knew a dude that knew some other dudes and one of them heard of a guy that did that and it like sucked and stuff and his beam talked backwards and in like japanese or spanish talk. you know man one of those things almost got me busted by the fcc back in the 70's good thing me and my
buddys had the munchies. "whew 10-4 good buddy"
lmao...ducks will be ducks! |
Taz
| | Posted on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 10:05 pm: |
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DUCK HUNTER THINKS HES A BIG DOG, SO GO POUND YOUR CHEST DUCK. HES A WANNABEEEE CHANNEL 6er WHO SPEAKES EBONICS...
No offense. I have just delt with that type before.
Im yelling at duckhunter |
bruce
| | Posted on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 10:55 pm: |
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what is he saying taz ?????? is he quacked up??? |
Colt
| | Posted on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 11:53 pm: |
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Kids need to learn to respect their elders. |
RCI2990
| | Posted on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 1:06 am: |
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As Charlie Brown was once quote as saying "good grief!"... |
Taz
| | Posted on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 1:13 am: |
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He is saying he is a big dog and dosent want to tell anyone anything. Listen to channel 6. Thats what its all about. |
bruce
| | Posted on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 8:13 am: |
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colt.. taz needs to respect ME ..... he thinks im as old as dirt.. hey while were on antennas does anyone know how jogunn measures audio gain on a yagi ???? serious i want to see how its done.
bruce |
Taz
| | Posted on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 11:45 am: |
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Bruce I do respect you. Old as dirt? I thought you were in your 30's man. |
RCI2990
| | Posted on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 6:24 pm: |
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Audio gain??? HUH?? never heard of that one!! |
bruce
| | Posted on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 8:58 pm: |
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now here is a antenna being sold for cb with all the things you have heard me gripe about take a look at it
http://pro.wanadoo.fr/dxsr/611e.htm
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bruce
| | Posted on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 9:42 pm: |
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the file that i sent the link for shows a 6 el cb beam and the seller gives great detal including radional patterns the REAL GAIN is free space ground inhansment gain or the 13 or so db for the 6 elem beam is a ligit measurment however extreamly unlikely you will get it and only if you are horizontal but this is more the real world .... even though his numbers are somewhat high |
RCI2990
| | Posted on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 10:22 pm: |
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Were do they get this "audio gain" deal i wonder??? Kinda like a guy once said his beams boosted his modulation louder! LOL!! |
bruce
| | Posted on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 11:56 pm: |
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2990
HEY remember rocky and bullwinkl HEY 2990 watch me pull audio gain of my jogunn hat ! HAHAHA
The FIRST time i saw that in there catalog i thought OK something new SO i writh there enginerring dept and asked for E, H plane and AUDIO GAIN data for the 4 elm beam....... i got a new catalog SO .... boldy i called them and asked to talk the the design engineer ....he was out to lunch..... suer was .....so i asked for his name and was told HE DID NOT ANSWER LETTERS DIRECTLY so i wrote and saked them to fowared it to him .... you guessed it another catalog! Now at the time i was working for R&D at Sperry microwave in clearwater fla Larry Rainwater was our antenna design engineer... and my boss so Larry like me could smell this one like a 4 day old fish. Sadly Larry was killed just weeks after this he LOVED harleys and it cost him his life at less than 40 you know what if you could GET audio gain larry could have done it.... o by the way our antennas were at 96,000 MHZ. |
Bigbob
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 11:05 pm: |
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Try a 3 element beam with 2 additional reflectors out-riggers so to speak spaced about 9 feet greatly improves front to side and front to back ratio.Put the offending station right on the corner voila no interference. |
bruce
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 4:57 pm: |
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bigbob are you talking about the wedge shaped 3 reflector used in NBS ???? |
RCI2990
| | Posted on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 1:31 pm: |
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Seems ive seen an antenna like that in an old CB catalogue some time ago. I dont know who made them but they looked like they worked pretty well with that added reflector. |
bruce
| | Posted on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 7:03 pm: |
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yes it does ( the 3 reflector triangle )it adds about 1/2 db does improve rejection but all test ive seen adding another director does somewhat better. |
FREEBANDER
| | Posted on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 10:42 am: |
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I THROUGHT YOU WAS TALKING ABOUT MY WIFE "REJECTION KITTY"
BE COOL.
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-BANDEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER |
BLACKSMITH663
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 3:05 pm: |
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HEY DUDES.
WHEN IN DOUBT, I USE THE K.I.S.S. PROGRAM...
(KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID!) CO-PHASING AND STACKING
ANTENNA'S IS AN ART-FORM! IF DONE INCORRECTLY IT CAN CAUSE 1 ANTENNA TO CANCEL ANOTHER ANTENNA'S SIGNAL...DONT GET ME WRONG,EXPERIMENTATION IS THE MOTHER OF INVENTION...AND (AS I WELL KNOW)STUPIDITY IS THE MOTHER OF ELECTROCUTION!!!!
GOOD LUCK! BLACKSMITH663 |
